Names can and do change all the time (VFA-31 started out as VF-1B, then VF-6, VF-3, VF-3A before becoming VF-31) but the squadron remains the same entity with all the associated history according to the Navy as long as it was never disestablished.
-
Please take a moment and update your account profile. If you have an updated account profile with basic information on why you are on Air Warriors it will help other people respond to your posts. How do you update your profile you ask?
Go here:
Edit Account Details and Profile
Summary of NFO flight school
- Thread starter Pat1USMC
- Start date
Names can and do change all the time (VFA-31 started out as VF-1B, then VF-6, VF-3, VF-3A before becoming VF-31) but the squadron remains the same entity with all the associated history according to the Navy as long as it was never disestablished.
VA-106 was disestablished in 1969, and then re-established as the East Coast Hornet RAG in 1984 as VFA-106, and took all the command history as well. Certainly precedent.
That is all well and good but according to the regs it was not 'official' according to the Navy, again a fine distinction but one none the less.
Last edited:
Flash is right. Here is the word from the horse's mouth.
http://www.history.navy.mil/faqs/faq6-1.htm
It's dated but still correct. The VFA community provides the easiest examples. First, there have been three "Jolly Rogers" squadrons. VF-61, VF-84, and the current VFA-103. Same traditions, same bones they carry around and try to get stolen. Three distinct squadrons with no official lineage shared. BzB's VA-146 may have changed patches and designations, etc. But they've never been disestablished, and are still around, struggling mightly to fix their broke-ass early lot Hornets. Seriously, they were like pointy-nose Prowlers on cruise.
But I digress.
There has only been one "Tophatters" squadron. That's why they lay claim to being around since 1917. They've flown a shit ton of aircraft. They've had a shit ton of designation changes. But they were never disestablished. That's the key. VF-101 to VFA-101 would have no effect if the squadron had stayed established when it happened. But it didn't. All the VF fleet squadrons went to VFA with no change in history. You can get redesignated all the time. What makes the current Grim Reapers different is the "break in service," if you will. In the Navy, that creates two distinct squadrons with two distinct lineages, no matter what name or traditions they assume. VA-106 != VFA-106, officially.
This was my personal windmill to tilt at in VAQ-142. There was an earlier VAQ-142 "Grim Watchdogs" in the 1980s and 90s. I chopped every award and eval which crossed my desk from "first carrier workup cycle in 21 years" to the historically correct "first carrier workup cycle." Mostly I got overruled and ignored, but I slipped a few past the goalie. So, naturally, what was the phrasing on my EOT? Yeah. Bastards . . .
http://www.history.navy.mil/faqs/faq6-1.htm
It's dated but still correct. The VFA community provides the easiest examples. First, there have been three "Jolly Rogers" squadrons. VF-61, VF-84, and the current VFA-103. Same traditions, same bones they carry around and try to get stolen. Three distinct squadrons with no official lineage shared. BzB's VA-146 may have changed patches and designations, etc. But they've never been disestablished, and are still around, struggling mightly to fix their broke-ass early lot Hornets. Seriously, they were like pointy-nose Prowlers on cruise.
But I digress.There has only been one "Tophatters" squadron. That's why they lay claim to being around since 1917. They've flown a shit ton of aircraft. They've had a shit ton of designation changes. But they were never disestablished. That's the key. VF-101 to VFA-101 would have no effect if the squadron had stayed established when it happened. But it didn't. All the VF fleet squadrons went to VFA with no change in history. You can get redesignated all the time. What makes the current Grim Reapers different is the "break in service," if you will. In the Navy, that creates two distinct squadrons with two distinct lineages, no matter what name or traditions they assume. VA-106 != VFA-106, officially.
This was my personal windmill to tilt at in VAQ-142. There was an earlier VAQ-142 "Grim Watchdogs" in the 1980s and 90s. I chopped every award and eval which crossed my desk from "first carrier workup cycle in 21 years" to the historically correct "first carrier workup cycle." Mostly I got overruled and ignored, but I slipped a few past the goalie. So, naturally, what was the phrasing on my EOT? Yeah. Bastards . . .
Last edited:
Finally, someone who wasn't as lazy as I actually posted something official with a good explanation to boot. We were constantly reminded of this very fact when I was in 128 by all the old Intruder hands who had been in the previous 128, we weren't the 'real 128' and not anywhere near worthy of their lineage. Yeah, yeah.....go ride your gate guard bird old man!
Oh yes, BzB Jr. is the lead Engineer for NAVAIR SW, on the F/A-18C Service Life Extension Program (SLEP) at NORIS. The 'Legacy Hornets' are really ragged, having accumulated massive "G" loads/hours over several decades of fleetOps. His team does inspections, structural testing, repair design/repair of wings & adjoining fuselage structure, in order to grant each aircraft's 1000 flight hour extension. Needless to say, with some of the early "C"s having up to 25 years of fleet ops, they are getting extremely TIRED!BzB's VA-146 may have changed patches and designations, etc. But they've never been disestablished, and are still around, struggling mightly to fix their broke-ass early lot Hornets. Seriously, they were like pointy-nose Prowlers on cruise.
BzB
707guy
"You can't make this shit up..."
Great share - thanks! I have been through NHHC's website a thousand times but never took the time to read that - good info!
According to the squadron lineage cited above, VA-146 established in 1956 w/ FJ-4Bs, remained unchanged until 1989, when redesignated VFA-146 W/ F/A-18Cs.
In 1968, upon transition to the then new A-7Bs, the squadron redesigned & adopted the new patch on the right below (bleah). Would that be allowed? It seems like unilaterally BREAKING a lineage tradition by changing the patch that the old guard had carried through 3 combat deployments. We veteran Blue Diamonds were not amused (to no avail).
Mr. Flash, you're the AW lineage guru, would the SLUF weenies have needed higher authority approval, to change a patch that had existed since original squadron designation?
View attachment 13422 View attachment 13423
BzB
......In 1968, upon transition to the then new A-7Bs, the squadron redesigned & adopted the new patch on the right below (bleah). Would that be allowed? It seems like unilaterally BREAKING a lineage tradition by changing the patch that the old guard had carried through 3 combat deployments. We veteran Blue Diamonds were not amused (to no avail).
Mr. Flash, you're the AW lineage guru, would the SLUF weenies have needed higher authority approval, to change a patch that had existed since original squadron designation?
To officially change the patch, yes. Things aren't always what they seem though and just like some squadrons have unofficially taken the heritage, insignia and traditions of another squadron many current squadrons have an 'official' patch they wear and everyone assumes is the 'official' one but in reality it is not the actual official one on file with the Navy. Clear as mud yet? This actually came up in my first squadron, VQ-1, because we had two patches floating around and a few of us wondered why and which one was the 'official' one. Official squadron patches are kept on file, I believe by the Naval History & Heritage Command, and when I looked ours up online I found that the one they had was not the one we wore and that the squadron wears to this day (an old link but accurate from what I can tell).
Here is the official patch:
Here is the one we wore and the one worn for many years before the other one was approved:
I never got the story why VQ-1's was changed in '92 and while the official patch was well known (and on all the official squadron office signs) but not generally worn. To make things more confusing the 'official' patch we wore per the squadron was the older style one with the globe and yellow lightning bolt. It was the same story with VQ-2, VT-4, VP-1, etc. I rarely saw their 'official' patch that was on file, they all wore another patch that was 'official' to the squadron though it is unofficial....officially.....in the Navy's eyes.
Long story short, there are official patch designs for all squadrons on file but squadrons do whatever the hell they want as long as they can get away with it. Frankly a nice little piece of Naval Aviation tradition itself.
VFA-146's official patch on file appears to be the one they changed it to in '68, interestingly enough though their patch wasn't officially changed from VA to VFA at least when the website was last updated over 10 years ago because "The squadron did not request a designation change to its banner following its redesignation to VFA-146."
Thanks Flasher, great chunk of research & info.. ! It's all good, still love me BDs no matter the patch. Gitten' too 'long of tooth to be sweatin' the small stuffs any more.
BzB
It may be of some consolation that, as of our air wing's last deployment, the Diamonds were rocking the throwback VA patch every Wednesday.In 1968, upon transition to the then new A-7Bs, the squadron redesigned & adopted the new patch on the right below (bleah). Would that be allowed? It seems like unilaterally BREAKING a lineage tradition by changing the patch that the old guard had carried through 3 combat deployments. We veteran Blue Diamonds were not amused (to no avail).
stretch_29
Member
How long does training take for NFO's? I've read through this forum and didn't see the answer to this question for the new curriculum
This was the info they put out about a month ago at TW-6 and VT-10. Right now it is "supposed to be" (baring weather, planes being up, or flight surgeons), ~6 months for Primary, ~1 month for Intermediate, ~7 months for Advanced Jets, tack on another month for Hawkeyes at the end of Intermediate.
They also put out that the Jet FRS would take 14 months, Hawkeye FRS would take 8 months, and the land based aircraft FRS would take 6 months. This was however, a presentation given by an air wing that did not include those squadrons, so I sure there is better "gouge" out there.
They also put out that the Jet FRS would take 14 months, Hawkeye FRS would take 8 months, and the land based aircraft FRS would take 6 months. This was however, a presentation given by an air wing that did not include those squadrons, so I sure there is better "gouge" out there.
Well...my experience was commission Nov 2011, wings in Nov 2013. There's going to be a lot of breaks and down time. Also, the jet FRS is about 9-10 months.
Not if you're in Lemoore. Aircraft acquisition issues, parts issues, you're looking at a year plus.