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Tailhook?
- Thread starter cozy1
- Start date
I could never argue platforms with somebody from a community that can produce this:
Seriously, as a former FRS instructor whose Commodore once said "They have to make it through [the FRS], we need the bodies" I really do feel your pain. I don't know if anybody important enough will ever have the political will to add "get sent home and we'll get another one that looks just like you" to the list of tailhook selections but that is a much better answer than "send him to the least poplular choice".
I can say that has not been my experience. We have been fortunate to have a CO and XO currently that fully support our calls. What happens after it goes past the CO to the Commodore - well, that remains to be seen as we have a new one on board - but things are looking up.
Unfortunatly, what you say is often true. I'll never forget our wonder of a Skipper when I was in VT-9 as a student - who once called ground since he didn't want to wait in the 5 plane queue to take-off to say "Ground, this is Tiger 1, inform the tower I'll be taking off from the off-duty runway" and proceeded to do so.... I saw many antics as a student there which showed there was a climate there of "we don't really care since they won't listen to anything we say, or do anything to us anyways".
I feared the same environment I saw as a student when I came down to Texas to be an IP, but fortunately that has most certainly not been the case. How long will it last? I'm sure at least the next two skippers - hopefully longer.
Back then, you had all the platforms to keep competition. I'm flying with the same studs Frumby is, and there is no question that many have that "What are they going to do, give me Hornets?" approach. Honestly, the E-2/C-2 studs tend to be more focused and its not unusual for them to outperform the "jet" students.
We have been trying to find out the exact syllabus details of what the new Tailhook classes will fly, - we pulled hard to include Tac-form, but I don't think it stayed - likely a money issue. Sadly, that is likely one of the better indicators, (beyond ACM which can't be early on in the syllabus), if someone has what it takes to handle the dynamic maneuvering.
E-2's and C-2's are a royal bitch to land, and suck big donkey balls at night around the boat, (see recent fatal accident this past week for proof). However, the dynamic flight environment just isn't there for those platforms. And fortunately there is someone in the right seat with plenty of piloting experience who can lend a hand/words of advice behind the boat when things get out of safe parameters. You can't say the same for a single seat Hornet.
I have fielded lots of concerned questions from the E-2/C-2 RAG that they are going to get the bottom of the barrel. It couldn't be further from the truth. The reality is that nearly every one of the current E-2 and C-2 pilots would have loved for the chance to prove themselves eligible to continue for jets - but they never got that shot. Before anyone can continue on to the multi-engine training in VT-31 and onto the RAG, excuse me, FRS, they must prove they can safely land on the boat. There is no if-ands-or-buts about this. If you can't land with a T-45, you certainly don't deserve the chance to try it in an E-2 or a C-2. That standard does not change, you just change WHEN they chose. The landing standards aren't changing, and if anything, the standards that we slack or don't apply for the E-2/C-2 students will disappear with the new Tailhook classes, (such as E-2/C-2 studs not doing over the tops or Tail chase in Cruise forms).
I think this is long overdue, is what the E-2/C-2 community has been asking for, and in reality, is similar to the way it was long ago - well before most of us were flying. It should also be noted that the former Commodore of TW-2, who wasn't an E-2 or C-2 pilot, put up this proposal. Primarily because of what Frumby alluded to - a lack of competition, which was diluting the pool. It sucked for all studs involved.
I'm ready for it and am glad its coming.
-Snocone
I would love to have the studs chime in on why there shouldn't be competition for the fixed wing CV platform spots... besides the obvious money/time to train thing. Cancel a few end of the fiscal year OPTAR Tabue Dump-exs at Oceana and all the training is paid for.
I think the point is that those platforms have more 'support' for a pilot who might be trying to crash his plane. "Hey dude, watch your altitude." or "There's a big-a$$ tower ahead on this route" are a couple of things I would think that other guy (or multiple guys) could help with.
I'm curious about the attitudes that come from the Marines, where some have a genuine fear of getting harriers or prowlers. Are their attitudes better in regards to competition compared to their Navy brothers?
We (the Marines) always joked in Meridian about how easy the navy guys had it. They knew they were going to fly hornets (except for the few prowler slots, but there were usually takers for those). Marines on the other hand kept the motivation up because most wanted Hornets or at least wanted to get Harrier grades. We worried about grades more than our navy brothers. Good or bad, it kept up the competition.
There is competition on the navy side as well, since most want to to head east, vice west. However, the mixture of east/west slots for navy is too random to worry that much about.
I heard the phrase "what are they going to do, give me hornets" a bunch of times, but it was always said in jest. Bottom line: I saw a motivated attitude across the board in Meridian.
There is competition on the navy side as well, since most want to to head east, vice west. However, the mixture of east/west slots for navy is too random to worry that much about.
I heard the phrase "what are they going to do, give me hornets" a bunch of times, but it was always said in jest. Bottom line: I saw a motivated attitude across the board in Meridian.
I was actually asking about how the IP's see it.
I agree about the line being said in Jest. Most of our (yours and mine were some of the same :O ) friends who were Navy cats were either self-motivated or wanted to select the seat they wanted (East/West/Super/Baby). Or both.
So there is a student perspective....
I agree about the line being said in Jest. Most of our (yours and mine were some of the same :O ) friends who were Navy cats were either self-motivated or wanted to select the seat they wanted (East/West/Super/Baby). Or both.
So there is a student perspective....
I think you have a valid point with this one, with the exception that getting out of parameters for an E-2 or C-2 is much easier than for a Hornet. The tolerances just aren't the same. As far as lending advice, that usually occurs after the fact anyway. It would be just like getting your pass from paddles. Instantaneous corrections by the aircraft commander at the boat are usually a means of a) avoiding the bolter or b) avoiding damaging the aircraft. In another post I mentioned pulling back on the control column from the right seat to avoid hitting our nosewheel first on the deck. That situation was caused by a power call by paddles with the appropriate power response and push nose down by the pilot (which actually maintains correct nose attitude), but an incorrect correction when going immediately back to idle and keeping forward pressure on the control column. I can't imagine (and I can only imagine at this point) that a Hornet does not have the same control input while landing on the ship. Moral of the story, you have to be an aviator to fly the E-2 or C-2. That's when having someone else there is helpful.
As far as dynamic maneuvering goes... I certainly wish we E2/C2 guys had more. We put the jet studs to shame in form.
Okay, I'll bite. As someone who has already selected, I can't complain since I got what I wanted. However, Primary is fresh in my mind and I remember working my ass off every day for 8 months (of a 6 month program) and then Tailhook popped up a month before I finished. We perceived this as yet another hurdle to our ulitmate goal - hardly the reward for working hard in Primary.
At first, I bitched and moaned about if I hadn't been weather canceled so much, I could have slipped in the old system. Later, I started to see the upsides to Tailhook from a student point of view. 1) I've never flown a jet. Maybe I'll suck\hate it\etc. and it would be nice to not be stuck in that platform. 2) After talking with the IPs, maybe I'd decide that an E2/C2 lifestyle suited me better than jets, or vice versa.
In reply to several of the IPs comments that Navy jet students are often lazy, I respectfully counter that they may be reading students incorrectly. First of all, I doubt any SNA in his right mind would actually say "What, are they going to give me Hornets" to an IP. I'd sooner show up to a brief wearing a SEAL Trident and a TOP GUN hat.
Secondly, remember back to your intermediate\advanced days. Seems like most people don't fly so hot at first out here. If a SNA keeps a stoic face in a debrief for a crappy flight, maybe he's just taking it like man. I'd rather have self-respect and have people doubt my commitment than be known as the guy who cries after getting a pink sheet. Everyone I met in Primary that wanted\got jets were the hard workers. That's whos coming to Kingsville\Meridian. That's the people I have met here. Need proof? In Meridian, there is not a single available practice sim spot remaining an hour after the schedule comes out - including Friday night. I've heard Kingsville is worse.
Tailhook or jets - hard workers usually keep doing just that.
Well, to the first comment, unless you had a 70+NSS, you could have easily gotten E-2/C-2's out of primary. I had a few classmates who had between 60-70's, wanted HELO's, yes, HELO's and got E-2/C-2. And not two selections later, 4 guys with 50 and 51 NSS's got Jets. Its 95%+ timing, no matter how you look at it assuming you have beyond the minimum 50 NSS,(with very few exceptions). Don't forget that above a 50 NSS only means you are in the top half. That's it, nothing more, its purely a bell curve of the last 200 students in that air-wing. if you have a 51, you were in the top 50% of the last 200 students, nothing more. (shoot, now I'm doubting myself, I'm pretty sure its the last 200, but I might be incorrect). But your right - it is better for you to have the decision later, and everyone benefits in my opinion.
For the second, I have had a student say that to me. Yes and I was shocked. In jest? Sorta, but not really. If they didn't really think it, it wouldn't have come out.
Second, we most certainly do see lack of preparation, lack of competition, etc.. A majority of the students do work hard and it shows, but I have no doubt in my mind that if they had a mid stage selection coming up that would be a deciding factor in what they get to fly - they would be working harder than what we are seeing most every day.
It sucks to arrive at a brief and ask some fairly straight forward questions and it be perfectly clear they were more interested in singing karaoke and picking up cougars,(well, lets be honest, who wouldn't?) the night before than getting ready for the hop. Again, they are the minority, but the competition is definitely NOT there and I hope TAILHOOK address it somewhat.
-Snocone
Food for thought. We have approx. 80-90 students per squadron at any given time, so ~160 per airwing. In Kingsville, there are limited sims, and in our case, 1 usually down being modded to a C model from an A sim. There are sims for every stage in phase 1 and most of phase 2. Thats a lot of students to give regular sims to every day - that is why there is so few practice slots. Usually 1 simulator with however many events per day - 10 or so? So 10 some-odd students can "practice" per day. Less than 10%. Most of the guys not doing well - we find out they aren't practicing.....
And unfortunatly, we can't fly the studs every day - the IP's are flying 2-3 times every day to keep most students flying every 2-4 days. Sometimes it works better, sometimes not.
Just something to consider. Again, most of the students do work hard and it does show. I wish those doing poorly would spend more time in the practice sims.
MasterBates
Well-Known Member
As opposed to drinking at the club and passing out int he RV park?
I'm with Scoob on this one. People get their selection, as snocone said, based almost entirely on timing. Your timing worked out fine for you, but it's also possible if you'd have selected the week before or after you could've gotten something not even on your list. Unless you had an 80 when you selected, you didn't work hard, you just worked enough.
You know, I've sipped on the Kool-aid, and it's tasty, but it's not about flying jets or helos or E-6's or whatever, it's about 'dem gold wings. So, be happy you got what you wanted, and yeah, get some perspective.