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Tapping the Power of the Chiefs

Gatordev

Well-Known Member
pilot
Site Admin
Contributor
Is not saluting really a thing now?

General etiquette isn't a thing near as much as it used to be. If standards aren't maintained, it's tough to blame the individuals, but given that, I truly believe it's a generational thing. That said, there's still plenty of Sailors that get it, but I'm not exaggerating with the 50% number at times and at certain locations.

And since when did we start capitalizing "Sailors" and "Chiefs"? I guess I missed that memo in the SELRES.

Probably because you don't drive a giant truck or have a skull and cross-bones with a combo cover on it. Those two things are board requirements, it would seem.
 

Recovering LSO

Suck Less
pilot
Contributor
Probably because you don't drive a giant truck or have a skull and cross-bones with a combo cover on it. Those two things are board requirements, it would seem.
Thankfully, there has been some standardization to all of this:

F-150 is when they make Chief
F-250 is when they make Senior Chief
F-350 is when they make Master Chief (with 37' fifth wheel if MMCPO).
 
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Flash

SEVAL/ECMO
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
General etiquette isn't a thing near as much as it used to be. If standards aren't maintained, it's tough to blame the individuals, but given that, I truly believe it's a generational thing. That said, there's still plenty of Sailors that get it, but I'm not exaggerating with the 50% number at times and at certain locations.

I guess I am lucky on the weekends though I was struck a little while ago just how many sailors had their heads buried in their smartphones when walking around.

Probably because you don't drive a giant truck or have a skull and cross-bones with a combo cover on it. Those two things are board requirements, it would seem.

I knew I was missing something...
 

exNavyOffRec

Well-Known Member
Warning: people will probably be pissed at the following...

What I'd love for the Chief's mess to do is to instill customs and courtesies back into our way of life. Sending out emails about boot blousings and then complaining that JO's need to tighten up their uniform is not the answer. While I can't wait to get to a point (soon...) where I don't have to worry about someone having to salute me, it's still part of our culture and one I exist in for a bit longer. So how about we enforce the standard so that maybe more than 50% of Sailors can manage to a) address someone senior when walking by and b) actually render honors.

Instead there seems to be a lot of energy spent on whether we capitalize "Sailors" or "Chiefs" in correspondence. Which by the way, the article failed miserably at, so obviously it should be discounted. (joking)

enforcing the standards is the foundation!

I have known many CPO's who you didn't want them to write any correspondence going to the CO, but by god they are the ones you want to enforce the rules.
 
All well and good.....unless you have a shitty chief. Then what's his advice? I've never understood why we as a Navy herald the chiefs as the main trainer of JOs. I've learned a ton from my chiefs and there are several that to this day I seek out their opinions even though they're retired, but I've learned way more about being a good officer from my seniors who bothered to take the time to mentor me about how shit should work, to include the finer points of working my chiefs.

I can't speak for the Academy or ROTC, but OCS really sets up junior SWOs for failure with the 'learn from your chiefs' bullshit if you draw the short straw.

My OCS chief was fantastic, but I got to my ship with no chief for 6 months and then got an FTS chief that spouts off gauge from 10 years ago, has no respect in the division or the ship, and was set to retire within 6 months of showing up. Didn't understand ship's systems (never been on ship class), or any of the current administrative tools (SKED 3.2 what?!).

Explain to me again how I'm supposed to learn from them? Hardly the only JO in that position on the ship. Good chiefs are great, and a great resource, but as long as the mess continues to support bad chiefs and pitch the idea that all chiefs walk on water and DIVOS should trust their chief's they undermine themselves and young officers.
 

exNavyOffRec

Well-Known Member
I can't speak for the Academy or ROTC, but OCS really sets up junior SWOs for failure with the 'learn from your chiefs' bullshit if you draw the short straw.

My OCS chief was fantastic, but I got to my ship with no chief for 6 months and then got an FTS chief that spouts off gauge from 10 years ago, has no respect in the division or the ship, and was set to retire within 6 months of showing up. Didn't understand ship's systems (never been on ship class), or any of the current administrative tools (SKED 3.2 what?!).

Explain to me again how I'm supposed to learn from them? Hardly the only JO in that position on the ship. Good chiefs are great, and a great resource, but as long as the mess continues to support bad chiefs and pitch the idea that all chiefs walk on water and DIVOS should trust their chief's they undermine themselves and young officers.

He never should have been sent to that ship, you are supposed to have enough time to complete a minimum activity tour. It sounds like by him being screwed over you ended up being screwed over.

Something must have happened for the billet to be gapped like that, I have seen gaps but not that long and it was when we had a guy get picked up LDO and another when we had a guy that was a humanitarian transfer to shore.
 

sickboy

Well-Known Member
pilot
I can't speak for the Academy or ROTC, but OCS really sets up junior SWOs for failure with the 'learn from your chiefs' bullshit if you draw the short straw.

My OCS chief was fantastic, but I got to my ship with no chief for 6 months and then got an FTS chief that spouts off gauge from 10 years ago, has no respect in the division or the ship, and was set to retire within 6 months of showing up. Didn't understand ship's systems (never been on ship class), or any of the current administrative tools (SKED 3.2 what?!).

Explain to me again how I'm supposed to learn from them? Hardly the only JO in that position on the ship. Good chiefs are great, and a great resource, but as long as the mess continues to support bad chiefs and pitch the idea that all chiefs walk on water and DIVOS should trust their chief's they undermine themselves and young officers.


Get with your other DIVOs, talk to other CPOs, or your LPO. You're not the only one to have a shitty chief. Someone out there will help, but you gotta ask.
 

azguy

Well-Known Member
None
Get with your other DIVOs, talk to other CPOs, or your LPO. You're not the only one to have a shitty chief. Someone out there will help, but you gotta ask.

This. Additionally, don't hesitate to utilize your DH and the CMC. The CMC, when directly confronted with clear shortcomings of his CPOs, can be very helpful in encouraging them to get up to speed. Also, start documenting issues now.
 

sickboy

Well-Known Member
pilot
This. Additionally, don't hesitate to utilize your DH and the CMC. The CMC, when directly confronted with clear shortcomings of his CPOs, can be very helpful in encouraging them to get up to speed. Also, start documenting issues now.

I wasn't even thinking along those lines, but yes. Document the heck out of it. In the meantime engage someone who can help you run your division. Do you have a department LCPO?
 

nittany03

Recovering NFO. Herder of Programmers.
pilot
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
Get with your other DIVOs, talk to other CPOs, or your LPO. You're not the only one to have a shitty chief. Someone out there will help, but you gotta ask.
True, but this goes two ways. This is why as a DH-level officer, you need to keep an eye on how the JOs are doing. Having been a JO myself, and then having been an O-4 in charge of a couple of junior JOs, it's not acceptable to just say "well, they'll come to me with questions." They may. Or they may not know what questions to ask, or they may not realize that something is off. Especially if they're new to DivO-hood. There is a time and a place for a quick course correction before things get out of hand, even if it's just a "hey, have you thought about X?"

Obviously, DivOs need to step up and do their jobs, but a DH-level leader who deliberately or inadvertently lets a JO flail because of a "Message to Garcia" mentality is failing at their job of developing JOs. Chiefs are there to teach JOs about technical things and enlisted life. DHs and the front office are there to teach JOs officership, not Chiefs.
 
I don't want to go too deeply into the weeds on responding to the flurry of responses here, because the topic isn't about me specifically, but I do want to thank everyone for offering up their own advice on paths forward. Much of it aligns pretty neatly with advise I've gotten from others (especially the LDOs/Priors in the Wardroom), and it's been stuff like that which has kept me afloat and helped me try to move my division forward. Anyone that talks about how shitty the SWO community to each other is ignoring the huge strides it's made in the last few years.

There's still improvements to be made, things that can change, but I definitely didn't / don't have the feel of being left alone or constantly stabbed in the back by other JOs, and even department heads.

I'll also throw out that there absolutely are good chiefs on every boat, including my own. There are also chiefs that are bad in different ways - those that do all the work and never force their DIVO to step up. From what little I've seen, it seems like the best are usually the younger, but not young, guys that have been on the ship for a couple of years, know it, know their divisions, and are up to date on everything. The worst tend to be the FTS guys that get dragged off of long shore duty assignments late in their career, that are old and set in their ways and ready to retire. There are exceptions to both. There isn't a one size fits all mold.

My point was not "oh, I have a bad chief" or "chief's suck". Neither of those is constructive. The point I was trying to raise is that we are taught as JOs, before we ever get to our ships, that we should trust our Chief, learn from them, lean on them, and let them teach us... and as often as that guidance is well placed, it's also too often a set-up for disaster. Some people have no chief. Some have bad chiefs. Some have chiefs that are bad in other ways: hammering this one size fits all 'chiefs teach JOs' idea into the head of everyone does no one any good.

He never should have been sent to that ship, you are supposed to have enough time to complete a minimum activity tour. It sounds like by him being screwed over you ended up being screwed over.

Something must have happened for the billet to be gapped like that, I have seen gaps but not that long and it was when we had a guy get picked up LDO and another when we had a guy that was a humanitarian transfer to shore.

How the manning happened I'm not really sure, but I know that the division has gone through 3 chiefs in 3 years, including a year long stint without any chief at all. The last two chiefs have been FTS, and the billet is now only open to FTS for some reason, which is a real shitter. His orders have him here through November of 19, but he retires this year. At the same time my division (billeted for 4 1st classes) has been gapped on two billets for 9 and 6 months respectively, and my other two first classes that have been here both leave at the end of the year as well. By the end of 2017 I'll have no chief, one 1st class that checked in two months prior, two second classes, and a bunch of junior people in a division billeted for 5 1st classes and up.

To put in perspective how bad it is, I've had a work center run by a fireman since I got to my ship (9 months) because he's the senior most person in his rate on the ship.

Go manning.

But hey, we've made it work. It is what it is. Adapt, improvise, overcome.
 

azguy

Well-Known Member
None
How the manning happened I'm not really sure, but I know that the division has gone through 3 chiefs in 3 years, including a year long stint without any chief at all. The last two chiefs have been FTS, and the billet is now only open to FTS for some reason, which is a real shitter. His orders have him here through November of 19, but he retires this year. At the same time my division (billeted for 4 1st classes) has been gapped on two billets for 9 and 6 months respectively, and my other two first classes that have been here both leave at the end of the year as well. By the end of 2017 I'll have no chief, one 1st class that checked in two months prior, two second classes, and a bunch of junior people in a division billeted for 5 1st classes and up.

Sounds like a very sorry state of affairs. But I'm guessing you're in a fairly unique situation, because of the FTS-only CPO issue (MCM? LSD?). In contrast to your situation, we see small boys routinely deploying with 90-92%+ fit, and a higher fill. Anyway, there are multiple different avenues to pursue manning fixes, which I'm sure you're already working, so I won't get into it here.

Re: your comments about not all Chiefs being perfect. Yep, that's a fact. But I'll turn it around on you a bit - as an officer charged with leading sailors- that CPO is one of your sailors too! Help him grow! As he ramps up and becomes more successful, it will pay dividends for you. As you alluded to, very very few CPOs simply "suck at everything" and are a totally lost cause.
 

exNavyOffRec

Well-Known Member
How the manning happened I'm not really sure, but I know that the division has gone through 3 chiefs in 3 years, including a year long stint without any chief at all. The last two chiefs have been FTS, and the billet is now only open to FTS for some reason, which is a real shitter. His orders have him here through November of 19, but he retires this year. At the same time my division (billeted for 4 1st classes) has been gapped on two billets for 9 and 6 months respectively, and my other two first classes that have been here both leave at the end of the year as well. By the end of 2017 I'll have no chief, one 1st class that checked in two months prior, two second classes, and a bunch of junior people in a division billeted for 5 1st classes and up.

To put in perspective how bad it is, I've had a work center run by a fireman since I got to my ship (9 months) because he's the senior most person in his rate on the ship.

Go manning.

But hey, we've made it work. It is what it is. Adapt, improvise, overcome.

A good Chief would love to come to that division, you seem like a DIVO that is motivated, and has a division that could really grow and shine with the right DIVO/CPO team.

I finished my indoc to reactor department, was assigned to a division and on my first day was assigned as WC sup because they had no one else to spare, I wasn't qualified a watch or anything, but I made it work, I hope your fireman is as sharp and motivated as I was. I know many like to assign positions based on rank, and that works well often, but if I had a sailor who was junior but better than the other guys I would put the junior guy in charge.
 
Sounds like a very sorry state of affairs. But I'm guessing you're in a fairly unique situation, because of the FTS-only CPO issue (MCM? LSD?). In contrast to your situation, we see small boys routinely deploying with 90-92%+ fit, and a higher fill. Anyway, there are multiple different avenues to pursue manning fixes, which I'm sure you're already working, so I won't get into it here.

DDG.

Re: your comments about not all Chiefs being perfect. Yep, that's a fact. But I'll turn it around on you a bit - as an officer charged with leading sailors- that CPO is one of your sailors too! Help him grow! As he ramps up and becomes more successful, it will pay dividends for you. As you alluded to, very very few CPOs simply "suck at everything" and are a totally lost cause.

He goes on terminal in less than 4 months and has flat out said he has no interest in/willingness to learning / relearning Sked 3.2 / OMMG-NG, or getting all of his various permissions set up on the ship to be involved in anything even as simple as a leave chit, or qualifying / re-qualifying in anything. Getting him to do the checks that require him requires that I hold his liberty and have someone hold his hand in SKED. He's never been on the platform before. I can't say he's taught me nothing, but the biggest thing I've learned is the importance of getting into references and being able to speak with authority on topics so when my guys object that he's telling them things that will get them in trouble I can shut those ideas down with a direct reference.

At the end of the day, if he had two years left in the navy I'd be more interested in trying to mold him. For now, I'd rather devote my energy to the guys that are going to be on the ship, and hopefully in the navy, for much longer. Maybe that's a failing on my part - it wouldn't be the first. If it weren't for the initiative, drive, and a lot of late hours from my sailors we'd all be in a world of hurt. As it stands, I feel pretty positive that the division is getting ready to turn a corner, I just wish it hadn't taken so long to get there, and that so many of the problems hadn't fallen on junior guys.
 
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