THE DEBATE, round 1

[xj220]

Here's a pretty good rundown of the debate. Doesn't go into too much detail, but it covers the basics:
http://soundpolitics.com/archives/011630.html

 

[HercDriver]

The idea that Sen Obama is elitist is trying to be pushed by the right wing echo chamber (Limbaugh, et al) in a classic Rovian strategy: Take someone's strengths and use them against 'em. Have a candidate who displayed heroism under fire (Kerry) while your candidate sat the war out at the Texas ANG...call the heroism into question. Have a candidate that was raised by his middle class single mom and grandparents...make him out to be elitist. Only in Bizarro world would the mult-millionaire owner of numerous houses be calling the guy who just recently paid off his student loans and owns one house "elitist".

I'm sure there is plenty of actual policy you could attack him on if you disagree, but the elitist stuff is low information voter drivel.

When you get down to it, the elitist cut is a mindset people criticize, and is not necessarily dependent on pedigree or background. Creating a pre-presidential seal, calling a senior Senator by his first name and not his title, making speeches across Europe in the image of JFK...all of these actions suggest an elitist mindset, one that does not sit well with a sizable portion of the country.

So his campaign staff made a seal (which he displayed a total of ONE time)...big whoop. So he visited Europe and made two speeches (not sure how it was like JFK, unless he decided to take a voluptuous mistress while over there)...good for him. If you are predisposed to look at someone's ability to make speeches to large crowds negatively, I feel sorry for you because it is something you should aspire to if you want to make senior officer. The elitist "cut" is apparently not dependent on pedigree, background or actual facts when you get down to it.

Acting like America's messiah...come on now, tell me what you're really going to do with the country so I have something of substance to turn over in my brain and criticize or agree with instead of the "Change Hope Change Windfall profits tax" drivel.

Acting like America's messiah...WTF are you talking about? Seriously.
He is running for President, and has acted like others who have run. I see very little that has set his actions apart from others who have run in the past.

Americans want a smart president, but also a man of the people. Lincoln immediately comes to mind when I think of the ideal President. Self starter, self educated, not terribly polished and ugly as sin, but the guy was one hell of a President. Coming off as a snob doesn't play well with the majority of Americans, because the majority of us are not upper crust, did not go to hahvahd, yale, or princeton, and do not make several million a year.

So how is he not a man of the people? Because someone told you that? Because he is not a great bowler (I suck too...hope they don't take my American passport)? I drink wine as well as beer, I like food from all over the world, and I've eaten my share of arugula (bought at the local Harris Teeter). Is that elitist?

Sen Obama's money was actually earned by the books he wrote. Earning your own money instead of marrying into it...how refreshing. Perhaps you think of it as snobbish, I dunno.

None of our candidates fall outside of more than a few of these categories, but that doesn't mean we don't like to try to think of them as regular people. McCain does not have the golden boy halo effect, and started off in the military out of a federal service academy. He's come from a place some of us can identify with.

Ruining that notion with icons of elitism can only hurt a candidate.

Please give me some real example of Obama's elitist views. I would be surprised if you could, other than some phoney-baloney talking points. He certainly could have gone to a Wall Street firm and been earning a lot more, but he didn't...not sure how that is elitist.

As for your idea of the best candidate being the one you can think of as a regular person...well, I guess that is, um, something to look at. I would prefer a candidate who I think best represents my ideals, goals for the country, and will do the best job of leading us. I'm guessing you want a drinking buddy instead.

 

[Random8145]

The idea that Sen Obama is elitist is trying to be pushed by the right wing echo chamber (Limbaugh, et al) in a classic Rovian strategy: Take someone's strengths and use them against 'em.

Senator Obama talked about "bitter Americans who cling to their guns and religion" to a bunch of San Francisco elites. I think he is elitist. It came off as him having a, "Those poor, scared, sheeple people of middle-America, they are bitter because of these tough times and need our help, and they cling to age-old things that we advanced big city elites are far beyond, like guns and religion..."

Have a candidate who displayed heroism under fire (Kerry)

The Swiftboat vets would disagree with that.

while your candidate sat the war out at the Texas ANG...call the heroism into question.

http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/Read.aspx?GUID=13E19FC1-B836-4F49-83FF-9EFFF6DC6176

Have a candidate that was raised by his middle class single mom and grandparents...make him out to be elitist. Only in Bizarro world would the mult-millionaire owner of numerous houses be calling the guy who just recently paid off his student loans and owns one house "elitist".

I'd have to disagree completely here. Remember, elitism has nothing to do with how much money someone has. You can be a poor starving artist living in France who is very elitist, and you can be a very wealthy person, either born into it, or self-made, who isn't elitist in the slightest bit.

Yes, a lot of people born into wealth (and some self-made too) are elitist, but that is not what makes one elitist.

Senator Barack Obama can easily be very elitist whether he was born and raised poor, middle-class, rich, or whatever. So could Senator McCain, but he doesn't strike me as elitist at all.

Acting like America's messiah...WTF are you talking about? Seriously.
He is running for President, and has acted like others who have run. I see very little that has set his actions apart from others who have run in the past.

Saying in a speech that the sky will open and heaven will poor forth or whatnot (I forget the exact quote), or the Greek columns at the DNC...?

Please give me some real example of Obama's elitist views.

Again, what he said in San Francisco. All it takes is one quote. If Senator McCain said, only once, about blacks eating their fried chicken and collard greens let's say, would you interpret him a racist or just say it was one talking point...? If that was said, the media would have played it endlessly and branded McCain as a white racist.

 

[porw0004]

The 'elitist' argument is so worn out, obnoxious, and pointless. Anyone who has taken one of those psyche profile exams should be familiar with this one:

"Are you a snob, or a slob?"

For a professional, there is a correct answer.

 

[scoolbubba]

As for your idea of the best candidate being the one you can think of as a regular person...well, I guess that is, um, something to look at. I would prefer a candidate who I think best represents my ideals, goals for the country, and will do the best job of leading us. I'm guessing you want a drinking buddy instead.

Not quite. I identify with John McCain more than I do with Sen. Obama. He served in the Navy, has ideas that I agree with, and supports an agenda I'm on board with. I pretty much think that puts him right in the category of earning my vote as someone best capable of leading us.

I can't support Obama's views, either. Some I disagree with, and some he just hasn't clarified where he stands or what he plans to do. I can hope for change in one hand, and shit in the other, and see which one fills up first. It doesn't make it a good plan. Taxing the oil industry because the public dislikes it and its an easy target? foolish. no way this won't trickle down to the same people who already bitch about gas prices. Attempting to socialize health care and increase spending with a tax plan that will, admittedly, cut tax revenues? Haven't we had enough of government with a credit card? Refusing to acknowledge successes in Iraq and acting as though the things we've fought for thus far don't count for something? I understand his disagreement with going to war, and standing by his principle's, but we're there, like it or not, and pulling out of our foreign policy obligations because it is messy is not the level of intestinal fortitude I'd like to see in a Presidential candidate. Agreeing to speak to Iranian and North Korean leaders without conditions? Again, a lack of intestinal fortitude. The world is not as rosy as just sitting down with some misunderstood guys, having a cup of joe, and hashing out the past bad blood and history. I can't vote for a guy I don't agree with, much less one I can't associate any common experiences with.

And lastly, voting present? Come on now, if the rest of us phoned in a job we'd be out of it in two weeks, unless it's A-Pool. He's just another congressional bum in the most exclusive club in the country.


A guy I was considering voting for when he announced his candidacy has pissed away a vote over the course of the campaign.

 

[raptor10]

George Freidman of Stratfor and his analysis of the foreign policy positions of the candidates.

Part One: The New President and the Foreign Policy Landscape
Part Two: Obama’s Foreign Policy Stance
Part Three: McCain’s Foreign Policy Stance
Part Four: George Friedman on the Debate

 

[Flash]

Saying in a speech that the sky will open and heaven will poor forth or whatnot (I forget the exact quote), or the Greek columns at the DNC...?

Huh? What the heck are you talking about?

And if you hadn't noticed, there are greek columns on/in a lot of buildings, especially government ones. Maybe you should get out more.

 

[Mumbles]

Huh? What the heck are you talking about?

And if you hadn't noticed, there are greek columns on/in a lot of buildings, especially government ones. Maybe you should get out more.

Obama made a speech and I'm paraphrasing him....but he said something to the effect that "today is the day that the oceans start receding, and we start healing the Earth"....
those columns at Invesco Field, Denver.. were styrofoam BTW.

 

[jt71582]

Huh? What the heck are you talking about?

And if you hadn't noticed, there are greek columns on/in a lot of buildings, especially government ones. Maybe you should get out more.

Flash you've got to admit the columns thing was just over the top. Its not like it was the stage for the entire DNC...they brought them in just for his speech. Find it laughable and move on.

 

[HercDriver]

Senator Obama talked about "bitter Americans who cling to their guns and religion" to a bunch of San Francisco elites. I think he is elitist. It came off as him having a, "Those poor, scared, sheeple people of middle-America, they are bitter because of these tough times and need our help, and they cling to age-old things that we advanced big city elites are far beyond, like guns and religion..."

How do you know they were elites? Is that good? Does that mean they were the best people in their respective fields?

Anyway, if I remember he was trying to answer a question on how do the folks canvassing for him in Pennsylvania get voters to support him vice Clinton. He indicated some of the difficulties with these voters voting against their economic interests and voting for hotbutton issues like guns and issues relating to morality/religion. His assesment was true but put out too frankly/inartfully/boneheadedly; take your pick. Honestly, it was a bit of a non-issue and blown up for political purposes.

I'd have to disagree completely here. Remember, elitism has nothing to do with how much money someone has. You can be a poor starving artist living in France who is very elitist, and you can be a very wealthy person, either born into it, or self-made, who isn't elitist in the slightest bit.

Yes, a lot of people born into wealth (and some self-made too) are elitist, but that is not what makes one elitist.

Senator Barack Obama can easily be very elitist whether he was born and raised poor, middle-class, rich, or whatever. So could Senator McCain, but he doesn't strike me as elitist at all.

He could be, but isn't.

Saying in a speech that the sky will open and heaven will poor forth or whatnot (I forget the exact quote), or the Greek columns at the DNC...?

I believe Hillary said, on Feb 23rd:

“Now I could stand up here and say, let’s get everybody together, let’s get unified the sky will open, the light will come down, celestial choirs will be singing,”

As for the Greek columns...what is so elitist about that? The shitty post office in my neighborhood has 'em...maybe I should mail my letters elsewhere? In fact, in a lot of old cities every government building is a neo-classical style with more columns than the Parthenon.

Again, what he said in San Francisco. All it takes is one quote. If Senator McCain said, only once, about blacks eating their fried chicken and collard greens let's say, would you interpret him a racist or just say it was one talking point...? If that was said, the media would have played it endlessly and branded McCain as a white racist.

Apples and oranges; he was speaking of voting patterns, not saying that these people were dumb rednecks. I would say what he said was stupid, perhaps, but not racist.

 

[HercDriver]

I can't support Obama's views, either. Some I disagree with, and some he just hasn't clarified where he stands or what he plans to do. I can hope for change in one hand, and shit in the other, and see which one fills up first. It doesn't make it a good plan.

That is actually part of his campaign slogan, it isn't actually a plan.

Refusing to acknowledge successes in Iraq and acting as though the things we've fought for thus far don't count for something?

Interesting spin. I've heard him repeatedly talk about the great job done by the troops through their hard work and bravery. Not sure where you've gotten that he has refused anything.

I understand his disagreement with going to war, and standing by his principle's, but we're there, like it or not, and pulling out of our foreign policy obligations because it is messy is not the level of intestinal fortitude I'd like to see in a Presidential candidate. Agreeing to speak to Iranian and North Korean leaders without conditions? Again, a lack of intestinal fortitude. The world is not as rosy as just sitting down with some misunderstood guys, having a cup of joe, and hashing out the past bad blood and history. I can't vote for a guy I don't agree with, much less one I can't associate any common experiences with.

So he is standing by his principles and ending the war because of them, yet you think it is because it is just messy. You may want to actually look at his website to see the reasons he is against the war.
As for negotiating with other countries without preconditions (but with preparations), like No. Korea and Iran: Please educate me on how awesome we have done with both of those countries the last 6+ years. I can't remember; have we managed to take all power away from these two members of the Axis of Evil? Have they both stopped their pursuit of nuclear weapons with our policy of sanctions and ignoring them? Help me out here. And meeting with your enemies takes more intenstinal fortitude IMO than ignoring them.

And lastly, voting present? Come on now, if the rest of us phoned in a job we'd be out of it in two weeks, unless it's A-Pool. He's just another congressional bum in the most exclusive club in the country.

Either you are ignorant of the fact that voting present in the Illinois legislature is a pretty standard parlimentary procedure, or you are being disengenuous.
http://www.boston.com/news/nation/articles/2008/01/24/fact_check_obamas_present_votes/

 

[Flash]

Obama made a speech and I'm paraphrasing him....but he said something to the effect that "today is the day that the oceans start receding, and we start healing the Earth"....
those columns at Invesco Field, Denver.. were styrofoam BTW.

Sounds like a rhetorical flourish out of President Reagan's style of speechmaking or ads. "It's morning again in America....."

Flash you've got to admit the columns thing was just over the top. Its not like it was the stage for the entire DNC...they brought them in just for his speech. Find it laughable and move on.

Yeah, you are right. I guess it really is over the top when compared to these scenery pieces:

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9906E2DC1E30F930A15752C0A9659C8B63

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,353541,00.html

 

[raptor10]

George Freidman of Stratfor and his analysis of the foreign policy positions of the candidates.

Part One: The New President and the Foreign Policy Landscape
Part Two: Obama’s Foreign Policy Stance
Part Three: McCain’s Foreign Policy Stance
Part Four: Coming

Very interesting post raptor, wow a substantive unbiased analysis of the Geopolitical challenges the next President will face and a non-partisan perspective on likely ways each candidate will face them: A big change from all the other bloviating irrelevant rhetoric floating around here.

 

[Flash]

George Freidman of Stratfor and his analysis of the foreign policy positions of the candidates.

Part One: The New President and the Foreign Policy Landscape
Part Two: Obama’s Foreign Policy Stance
Part Three: McCain’s Foreign Policy Stance
Part Four: Coming

Very interesting post raptor, wow a substantive unbiased analysis of the Geopolitical challenges the next President will face and a non-partisan perspective on likely ways each candidate will face them: A big change from all the other bloviating irrelevant rhetoric floating around here.

That guy talks too much. How about that?

 

[mmx1]

Interesting spin. I've heard him repeatedly talk about the great job done by the troops through their hard work and bravery. Not sure where you've gotten that he has refused anything.

Well, he did claim that the turnaround in Iraq was due not to the surge but instead to the Democrat wins in 2006 placing pressure of withdrawal on Iraqi leaders.