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The end of NATO?

MaxGar

Well-Known Member
None
I really want to believe the admin is playing some kind of 4-D chess here
By no means an attack on your view, but you captured a lot of public opinion on 47.

It is wild how if 82-year old Biden were to call Zelensky a dictator, and Russia the victim merely over a month ago, he’d be treated as a dementia case, or plainly an idiot.

But when 78 year old Trump does it, it must be a masterclass of geopolitics
 
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number9

Well-Known Member
Contributor
I’m trying to wrap my head around this…. I really want to believe the admin is playing some kind of 4-D chess here by de-escalating the rhetoric. “Orange man bad” aside, what else do you folks think this could be?

Not throwing spears, honestly curious.
I would have thought that the first four years of his administration would have put paid to the "it's 4D chess" stuff, but apparently not.

One possible take is in today’s WSJ from Walter Russell Meade. (It is in Apple News as well.)

Meade's take is awful.
 

jollygreen07

Professional (?) Flight Instructor
pilot
Contributor
By no means an attack on your view, but you captured a lot of public opinion on 47.

It is wild how if 82-year old Biden were to call Zelensky a dictator, and Russia the victim merely over a month ago, he’d be treated as a dementia case, or plainly an idiot.

But when 78 year old Trump does it, it must be a masterclass of geopolitics
I don’t give a shit if they have an R or D by their name. My desire is that the chief executive doesn’t make a total fuck-show out of this whole thing.

I want my country to succeed, and unfortunately that is tied to the 78 year old dementia patient du jour.
 

number9

Well-Known Member
Contributor
I don’t give a shit if they have an R or D by their name. My desire is that the chief executive doesn’t make a total fuck-show out of this whole thing.

I want my country to succeed, and unfortunately that is tied to the 78 year old dementia patient du jour.
After President Carter passed away, the next two oldest living presidents were... the current President Biden, and the incumbent former President Trump.

Can we please stop electing septuagenarians and older?
 

Flash

SEVAL/ECMO
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
After President Carter passed away, the next two oldest living presidents were... the current President Biden, and the incumbent former President Trump.

Fun fact of the day, Presidents Trump, George W. Bush and Clinton were born in June, July and August of 1946.
 

Griz882

Frightening children with the Griz-O-Copter!
pilot
Contributor
I’m trying to wrap my head around this…. I really want to believe the admin is playing some kind of 4-D chess here by de-escalating the rhetoric. “Orange man bad” aside, what else do you folks think this could be?

Not throwing spears, honestly curious.
It’s hardly 4D Chess…it is simply brute pressure on the Ukraine to get on board. Trump has the statesmanship of an angry mule, but it is clear the status quo isn’t working. Let’s face face it, Obama never thought Ukraine had a chance against Russia (thus his hand wave over Crimea and the Donbas), Trump hoped he could sanction Putin into submission while leaving the Ukraine unarmed, and Biden, while keeping Trump’s sanctions in place, decided to increase defensive weapons shipments and just enough economic and intelligence aid to Ukraine to keep it from collapsing…sufficient to hold but not enough to win it and thereby provoke nuclear Russia. Biden hoped to keep feeding the war endlessly in efforts to bleed out the Russian military, weaken Putin, perhaps provoke a “democratic revolution” in Russia, but never pole the nuclear bear…it didn’t work. (Remember that during the Biden admins final year key shipments and weapons to Ukraine were stalled not just by months of congressional delays, but also by internal debates over escalation risks with Russia).

Even the loyal opposition in the U.S. has maintained that NATO membership is a non-starter for the Ukraine (Biden included). No one at Biden’s State Department ever imagined that Crimea would return to Ukraine. So, since hope failed as an option the next best thing is to drag Zelensky to the treaty table and set the stage with realistic expectations. 1. Russia returns to February 2022 borders in exchange for Ukraine surrendering territorial gains in Russia. 2. Promise Russia that Ukraine will stay out of NATO in exchange for keeping a European PKF in the area (that will also train the Ukrainian armed forces) 3. Allow U.S. interests to do business in Ukraine for a variety of economic and strategic advantages. In short, tie the business dollar to the Ukraine (as opposed to the defense dollar) as an added protection against Russian invasions.
 

taxi1

Well-Known Member
pilot
It’s hardly 4D Chess…it is simply brute pressure on the Ukraine to get on board. Trump has the statesmanship of an angry mule, but it is clear the status quo isn’t working. Let’s face face it, Obama never thought Ukraine had a chance against Russia (thus his hand wave over Crimea and the Donbas), Trump hoped he could sanction Putin into submission while leaving the Ukraine unarmed, and Biden, while keeping Trump’s sanctions in place, decided to increase defensive weapons shipments and just enough economic and intelligence aid to Ukraine to keep it from collapsing…sufficient to hold but not enough to win it and thereby provoke nuclear Russia. Biden hoped to keep feeding the war endlessly in efforts to bleed out the Russian military, weaken Putin, perhaps provoke a “democratic revolution” in Russia, but never pole the nuclear bear…it didn’t work. (Remember that during the Biden admins final year key shipments and weapons to Ukraine were stalled not just by months of congressional delays, but also by internal debates over escalation risks with Russia).

Even the loyal opposition in the U.S. has maintained that NATO membership is a non-starter for the Ukraine (Biden included). No one at Biden’s State Department ever imagined that Crimea would return to Ukraine. So, since hope failed as an option the next best thing is to drag Zelensky to the treaty table and set the stage with realistic expectations. 1. Russia returns to February 2022 borders in exchange for Ukraine surrendering territorial gains in Russia. 2. Promise Russia that Ukraine will stay out of NATO in exchange for keeping a European PKF in the area (that will also train the Ukrainian armed forces) 3. Allow U.S. interests to do business in Ukraine for a variety of economic and strategic advantages. In short, tie the business dollar to the Ukraine (as opposed to the defense dollar) as an added protection against Russian invasions.

Where does "Russia didn't start the war, Zelensky did" fit into all that deep thought?
 

Griz882

Frightening children with the Griz-O-Copter!
pilot
Contributor
Where does "Russia didn't start the war, Zelensky did" fit into all that deep thought?
First sentence…brute force. We all know Trump is a troll. He trolls Zelensky, he trolls Putin, he trolls everyone. He is as subtle as a sandbag falling on your head and the “international language” of diplomacy is meaningless to him.
 

Swanee

Cereal Killer
pilot
None
Contributor
They're not sitting...
Seems to me their standing in line and doing what the party tells them to.
Biden hoped to keep feeding the war endlessly in efforts to bleed out the Russian military, weaken Putin, perhaps provoke a “democratic revolution” in Russia, but never pole the nuclear bear…it didn’t work...

It didn't work in 3 years.

It might have worked as a protracted war that lasts decades, much like the GWOT. I suppose we won't be able to know that.

We're Americans, we can't see past the next election cycle, past the next quarterly report. We want things now, and we really don't care about 10-20 years from now. That's someone else's problem.
 

Griz882

Frightening children with the Griz-O-Copter!
pilot
Contributor
Seems to me their standing in line and doing what the party tells them to.


It didn't work in 3 years.

It might have worked as a protracted war that lasts decades, much like the GWOT. I suppose we won't be able to know that.

We're Americans, we can't see past the next election cycle, past the next quarterly report. We want things now, and we really don't care about 10-20 years from now. That's someone else's problem.
With reference to the first part, I was thinking of moderate republicans and democrats - not the wild eyed MAGA/Progressive edges.

I totally agree with the second part except I’m not sure Ukraine has the human capital to last another five years.
 
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