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The end of NATO?

Spekkio

He bowls overhand.
You made a lot of good points; but I disagree with the Russian sentiments. They have thousands of ICBMs aimed at us, and have killed citizens on our allies’ soil. I agree that Europeans should assist more as the problem is closer to home, but bringing America to 1930s isolationism isn’t the key to power.
I think that you missed the point.

CJCS is going to offer a hawkish solution for the reasons you state, and institutionally that's because he comes from a military background and we can see in this thread that people in our profession lead to the "fuck Russia at every opportunity to keep the enemy down" stance. SECSTATE is going to be singing a different tune (he wants to improve diplomatic relations with Russia), and POTUS is concerned about spending undue political capital in Congress and among the public for an issue that, realistically, is not very important to U.S. national interests. And to the extent it is important, is it worth poking the Russian Bear to shoot his load in our general direction?

Remember Obama's quip to Romney that won him a debate - "the Cold War called and wants its foreign policy back."

And because we (meaning, the military as an instution) often fail to take into account other competing factors when crafting our advice, we get ignored. A trend that has existed since the Korean War.

It will take another decade to find out, but I do wonder if firing CJCS and CNO was more about their hawkish neo-con international relations views that aligned closely with President Biden rather than their race and gender.

Trump has also been very silent on relations with China. He may change our policy in a significant way.

Personally, I view Russia as a significantly larger threat to U.S. national security than China. I'm also tainted by military groupthink and my career experiences, and it wasn't the point of my comment. The point of my comment is the failure of our senior leadership to appropriately weigh all the concerns of our political leadership.
 
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BigRed389

Registered User
None
I think that you missed the point.

CJCS is going to offer a hawkish solution for the reasons you state, and institutionally that's because he comes from a military background and we can see in this thread that people in our profession lead to the "fuck Russia at every opportunity to keep the enemy down" stance. SECSTATE is going to be singing a different tune (he wants to improve diplomatic relations with Russia), and POTUS is concerned about spending undue political capital in Congress and among the public for an issue that, realistically, is not very important to U.S. national interests. And to the extent it is important, is it worth poking the Russian Bear to shoot his load in our general direction?

Remember Obama's quip to Romney that won him a debate - "the Cold War called and wants its foreign policy back."

And because we (meaning, the military as an instution) often fail to take into account other competing factors when crafting our advice, we get ignored. A trend that has existed since the Korean War.

It will take another decade to find out, but I do wonder if firing CJCS and CNO was more about their hawkish neo-con international relations views that aligned closely with President Biden rather than their race and gender.

Trump has also been very silent on relations with China. He may change our policy in a significant way.

Personally, I view Russia as a significantly larger threat to U.S. national security than China. I'm also tainted by military groupthink and my career experiences, and it wasn't the point of my comment. The point of my comment is the failure of our senior leadership to appropriately weigh all the concerns of our political leadership.
Army and Marines are just as hawkish, if not more so given theyre leading their services to reallocate resources to support a Navy (and Air Force) centric fight in the Pacific rather than focusing on just their more traditional roles.

I actually agree with you on Russi / China. Or did. I think China has more to lose given they’ve got it quite good under the current state of affairs…I didn’t seem them in a hurry to kick off WW3. Russia’s much higher in desperation. They’ve been rotting away for decades and they know it.
 

MIDNJAC

is clara ship
pilot
Personally, I view Russia as a significantly larger threat to U.S. national security than China. I'm also tainted by military groupthink and my career experiences, and it wasn't the point of my comment. The point of my comment is the failure of our senior leadership to appropriately weigh all the concerns of our political leadership.

I think the desire to “thaw” relations with Russia, aside from apparently being a point of US domestic political allegiance at this point, also is generational. I am old enough to remember the USSR (I was in 8 when they ceased to exist), and while I wasn’t wearing the uniform at that point like some of the old farts around here, I haven’t forgotten. And I have watched the whole time we optimistically thought of them as friends in the 90’s, and everything since as they slowly began to seek to undermine us at every turn. We fucking horrified them with Desert Storm, we really made them shit their pants during Allied Force, and then they showed their own ass in Georgia losing a bunch of airplanes that we never would have. And then they showed their ass again in Ukraine. They’re a hollow force, but they want to destroy our country as retribution for the fall of the USSR. I dont think they will actually resort to nuclear weapons, but I dont think this is all “military groupthink”
 

PhrogPhlyer

Two heads are better than one.
pilot
None
What Hillary Clinton didn't understand when she gave Sergey Lavrov the "reset" button Clinton in March 2009 was that he was imagining it was a different button.
 

Gatordev

Well-Known Member
pilot
Site Admin
Contributor
Maybe I misread what I wrote, but I'm pretty sure the post you quoted was aimed at the interaction of the US, Denmark, and Greenland as it relates to the title of this thread. To the extent that conversation can (or can't) happen because there are unserious people making decisions - well that seems germane.

I did misread your post, and I apologize. I'm working nights right now and it's been really busy.

But I stand by my overall statement and intended thread correction. It appears to have been listened to by the participants and I thank you all for keeping the thread on track.
 

BigRed389

Registered User
None
Fascinating article on Ukrane’s war. Gift article…


Read it yesterday, I know some people hate the “MSM”, but also highly recommend.

It jived with a lot of the UNCLASS rumblings of those times as things played out, and offers very interesting insight into why things seemed to slip so far from the crushing successes of the early years of the war.
 

Spekkio

He bowls overhand.
This is why I hate the spin that Russia is merely a completely incompetent military. We had a lot to do with Ukraine's success in stopping the assault.

But at least it's good to know the intricate details.
 
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