Well I guess then it'll all be fresh when you hit the fleet; I remember my FO friends feverishly studying for SFs and NT-20 when I went through the first time.
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The Great Growler Gallery
- Thread starter woodman
- Start date
Wow...
1. Going Bs to Gs won't necessarily make you a better co-pilot. In Bs its not uncommon to have to wait until every third flight, or every other flight, to even fill the ECMO 1 (front right seat) role. As opposed to doing it every single flight in the G...and you'll be leading the section on most every flight. The side by side seating arrangement in the B can be great. Also great is being able to do a left hand co-altitude rendevous, and having radar SA to other players in the air. And not having 4 competing voices at times during a flight.
2. The G has the best radar in the world and the ability to defend itself...so yeah, it kind of makes sense to train to it. G crews also get sent to EW training ranges for their graduation events, and use the training resources in Whidbey all throughout the AEA phase. The G does more dedicated AEA flights than the B side does, but lets continue to $hit on them for also training to A/A, and doing stupid crap like memorizing time-lines that they need to employ.
3. Those fancy buttons make it a hell of a lot easier to do a better job at the primary SEAD mission. The system is good, and works well, and the aircrew interface is stellar.
4. The B is in the fight every day, and doing a kick-ass and very important job. The G will in all likelihood be there before you even get through the RAG. It ain't a F-22; it won't get held in reserve as it has a mission that needs doing.
5. You aren't guaranteed to transition in a year or two; depending on what squadron you go to, you could miss it altogether.
Look, VAQ is a great community, and you'll be happy in either platform. However, I'll take a newer jet with a newer system that has a higher FMC rate any day. Yeah, you can't pass a hand signal in a Growler; you can't lock up the tanker on a $hitty night, or look at the flight line and know that every signal jet has MIDs, a great AEA system, is plumbed for both forward and aft JHMCs and has a 7.5 G limit in a Prowler. The only structural advantages the Prowler has over the Growler is slightly better endurance, better ability to punch through icing and a piss tube. Going on the road with 4 dudes is also a good deal; just means that you need to go as a section in a G.
1. Going Bs to Gs won't necessarily make you a better co-pilot. In Bs its not uncommon to have to wait until every third flight, or every other flight, to even fill the ECMO 1 (front right seat) role. As opposed to doing it every single flight in the G...and you'll be leading the section on most every flight. The side by side seating arrangement in the B can be great. Also great is being able to do a left hand co-altitude rendevous, and having radar SA to other players in the air. And not having 4 competing voices at times during a flight.
2. The G has the best radar in the world and the ability to defend itself...so yeah, it kind of makes sense to train to it. G crews also get sent to EW training ranges for their graduation events, and use the training resources in Whidbey all throughout the AEA phase. The G does more dedicated AEA flights than the B side does, but lets continue to $hit on them for also training to A/A, and doing stupid crap like memorizing time-lines that they need to employ.
3. Those fancy buttons make it a hell of a lot easier to do a better job at the primary SEAD mission. The system is good, and works well, and the aircrew interface is stellar.
4. The B is in the fight every day, and doing a kick-ass and very important job. The G will in all likelihood be there before you even get through the RAG. It ain't a F-22; it won't get held in reserve as it has a mission that needs doing.
5. You aren't guaranteed to transition in a year or two; depending on what squadron you go to, you could miss it altogether.
Look, VAQ is a great community, and you'll be happy in either platform. However, I'll take a newer jet with a newer system that has a higher FMC rate any day. Yeah, you can't pass a hand signal in a Growler; you can't lock up the tanker on a $hitty night, or look at the flight line and know that every signal jet has MIDs, a great AEA system, is plumbed for both forward and aft JHMCs and has a 7.5 G limit in a Prowler. The only structural advantages the Prowler has over the Growler is slightly better endurance, better ability to punch through icing and a piss tube. Going on the road with 4 dudes is also a good deal; just means that you need to go as a section in a G.
No one's crapping on the G guys for anything. I, for one, am far from having enough experience to do so constructively if it was even necessary to begin with. I just remember here and there getting a sense that there were some guys who seemed to be looking at the Growler (not having flown it) as a chance to be Maverick the fighter guy, when slinging trons is still its raison d'etre.
Obviously, if you're carrying a missile and can't employ it effectively, you're a moron.
Obviously, if you're carrying a missile and can't employ it effectively, you're a moron.
There does seem to be a lot of concern about drinking Hornet kool-aid without a willingness to take a look at the VAQ bath water we've been happily drinking. There is a lot of stuff that we do in VAQ land that are worth changing, and that have gotten changed in the past year. For example, it used to take a f'in act of Congress to get a weather brief. It still takes that to activate a MOA...I almost said range, but then remembered that despite being the only tactical electronic aircraft in the f'in inventory, we don't have one. From the guys I talked to that were farmed out to Lemoore or Oceana, it sounds like the vast, vast majority did a great job of taking on the best practices of VFA land, while keeping sight of the fact that we are now, and will always be, an AEA community. Yeah, there are always going to be a couple of one offs, but there is more than one self loathing Prowler dude also.
Don't be so defensive. You're taking valid differences (goods and others) and trying to turn them into absolutes to shoot them down. Nobody is saying the G isn't an awesome, cutting edge AEA platform, but it's still in its infancy in terms of tactical maturity and systems stability/performance.
Anyway, as a guy who has done almost 10 years and three operational flying tours in the B, I will argue that coming from the B side will make your average ECMO a better EWO and co-pilot. There are certain things about the B that make it better in that sense. Is that a good reason to go B over G? Probably not, but it's still true.
Brett
Apologize if that came off defensive, just been having this same discussion for the past several years. And yes, experience in any airframe as crew intensive as the B will make you a better aviator (provided you're not a mouth briefer in the first place). That being said, it's also a lot easier for a crappy 'FO to hide in a four man crew.
No doubt, and that's a cancer which I hope the transition will move our community away from. There are FAR too many marginally performing ECMOs that should never have made it out of the TRACOMs or RAGs that wind up being useless in a fleet squadron for that very reason.
Brett
Short, you make very good points. Back to the point of the young guy wondering what to put on his selection sheet. Can he be a good flight school-to-G WSO? Yes. Would he benefit from mission related experience in a B going to a G? Yes. He should put whatever he wants on his selection sheet. The point was simply to let him know that selecting B's is not the kiss of death that many would have him think it is these days. Hopefully he wont end up just another self-loathing Prowler dude though...
Short said:
SO when a fleet squadron does move from the B to the G how many ECMOs are left at the door looking in? I remember hearing something like 6 Pilots and 18 ECMOs in a Prowler squadron with the same number of G jets as Bs you have a lot less seats to go around. I am just wondering.
A few Tomcat squadrons transitioned to E-Rhinos (e.g., the Pukin' Dogs). Their RIO's rolled out of the squadron at PRD and just weren't replaced, moved over to other Tomcat squadrons, or did their Rhino WSO transition early and moved on to a Rhino-F squadron. I imagine it'll be the same for ECMO's.
You make me laugh.
There's also something to be said about sitting next to your pilot. I can't count how many times I looked at my pilot and we both knew we were thinking the exact same thing. Or passed a single hand signal in about 2 seconds that would have meant about 20 seconds worth of chatter. Try doing that in a Growler.
It still takes 2 seconds. Just lift you hands a foot in the air.
I'm sure on NVG's this is straightforward, but last night (pretty dark, high overcast, low illumination) I was in the middle of doing a rdvz on my lead....just as he cleared me aboard, everything went quiet, and I started choking. Realized that my mask connector must have come unplugged, but since it was so dark (and like a good stud I had my lights way dimmed down) and I had no ICS I couldn't get my IP's attention with hand signals. Not wanting to go heads down at the controls to troubleshoot during a night join, I finally got his attention after about 10-15 seconds with the push-to-pass technique. Not saying an ECMO would need or be able to take the controls, but I can see how in certain situations, the side-to-side seating could have an advantage.
Yes, but imagine you couldn't pass the controls to anyone, and you were joining cross-cockpit and craning to see over ECMO 1 and the right canopy rail whilst all of the above was going on. Just sayin.
Left-handed turning rendezvous in the Prowler SUCK, especially at night.
Good point, that would suck.....even the -45's canopy bow can get in the way at annoying times....I'm sure an extra crewmember in the way and all that extra cockpit would be much worse!
The manning piece has all been handled - not an issue. Either way, there haven't been 18 ECMOs in a Prowler squadron for years - more like 12-14 these days.
Brett