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The Great Pirates off the Somali Coast thread

SkywardET

Contrarian
Killing terrorists? Protecting Americans?

Do you really think that? :eek: You are sorely mistaken. Did you stop and think that some of that ISR is more valuable that knocking off a few pirates?
Some of the ISR is, but absolutely not all of it.

How frequently has an FFG killed terrorists? I don't mean to be snide, but I think you are distorting the information you have to argue beyond the pale against going after pirates. The Navy is stretched a bit thin, but this is a completely legitimate use of resources that would otherwise not be used to as significant a strategic end. As a related example, from a policy perspective, no matter what you think the most important issue is for the nation (education is the most important issue, bar none), nobody would argue putting 100% of tax dollars towards that issue.

What would your argument be when an American ship is hijacked, or an American is a member of the crew of a hijacked ship? I'm just curious what the criteria will be to warrant what you are arguing against.

Further, I can't tell if you are arguing against further escalation of the anti-piracy efforts or arguing against the current armada that is off the coast of Somalia. Please clarify.


Flash said:
I think there is a disconnect when it comes to what many of you think we have in terms of resources and what is the reality. We have only so many ships and planes in the Navy and right now we are stretched pretty damn thin. If some of you saw just how few assets we now have available you would probably shake your heads in disappointment. We have nowhere near the number of the ships and airplanes we had just 20 years ago, and that was without fighting two wars at the same time.
I don't know the full extent of resources, I will admit. However, I have been "over that way" on a small boy that had 80 fewer sailors on it than it was designed to operate with. We did good things over there, and simultaneously we knew of other assets that were doing good things south of us, near Somalia. We were jealous, but we had to stay in the NAG/SAG. I can tell you that our presence there was very valuable, but the other assets south of us were also very highly valued. We can do both, and I do understand the magnitude of traffic in that region.


I'm not just some "Let's go get 'em" zealot, I just see this issue as more important than you do.

Additionally, my position is being misrepresented here. Notice how I have repeatedly said that the Navy can't solve the problem. That doesn't mean we can't help, or shouldn't offer any assets at all. All or most of your arguments can be applied to a host of other issues that are also being tackled, such as the Afghanistan poppy trade, the border region with Pakistan (or even with Mexico, for that matter), etc.

I understand that your post was not just to me, but to others who advocate similar stances, but please take note in the irony of the questions you raise. As I said earlier, I can't seem to understand your position because it simply seems to be a devil's advocate one, arguing against others for the sake of doing so. Take, for example:
[quote="Flash]And what happens when you do capture some pirates? It was significant that Kenya took custody of the pirates that the Royal Navy caught, but can we really depend on Kenya to take the entire burden? Where else are we going to send them? And whose laws are they breaking if they are in international or Somali waters?

You have to give a lot more thought to this than just saying 'we should do something'. We are doing something, and will soon be doing more. But there are serious limits to what the US Navy can do, simple as that.[/quote]Surely you don't think the questions you raise shouldn't get answered. If that is true, then doesn't that acknowledge the importance of putting a spotlight on the issue generally?

Regardless, I think we essentially agree on the basics. My position is more nuanced than others, after all.
 

smwatson82

New Member
I haven't been posting here long, so I will tread lightly, but I do have some thoughts.

Global benevolence, global safety, and good PR are great things, so there are some very worthwhile points to be made for using US military resources to combat this. As stated previously however, by posters both more eloquent and more informed than I, the US Navy (and other branches of the service) have their hands full right about now - which is to say that American taxpayers have their hands full right now, because they have chosen not to fund a larger Navy that has enough people and equipment to fight piracy in addition to two other wars. This brings me to my next point:

Capitalism is a wonderful thing. Supply and demand work very well. The shipping companies, and certainly Saudi Oil companies, are making good money, and they can start to use that money to deal with this current business challenge, by whatever means their legal and management teams work out with the national governments in the places where they do business. Of course, this will drive up their costs, which will have the potential outcome of either decreasing supply, or simply directly increasing prices to the consumer. If that happens, the consumers (read: American taxpayers) can decide if they think funding a larger Navy is the right solution to the problem.

That being said, if pirates start hijacking cruise ships, that is a whole different ball game, and almost certainly the point when the military should become directly involved. I realize that there are still a few people involved in attacks on merchant shipping, but once again, supply and demand come to our rescue: The sailors on those ships are doubtless well aware of the risks they are being exposed to, and are certainly compensated accordingly.
 

HeyJoe

Fly Navy! ...or USMC
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
web_081119-N-0075S-004.jpg


(Nov. 19, 2008) The Liberian-flagged oil tanker MV Sirius Star is at anchor Wednesday, Nov. 19, 2008 off the coast of Somalia. The Saudi-owned very large crude carrier was hijacked by Somali pirates Nov. 15 about 450 nautical miles off the coast of Kenya and forced to proceed to anchorage near Harardhere, Somalia. U.S. Navy photo by Aviation Warfare Systems Operator 2nd Class William S. Stevens (Released)


web_081117-N-1082Z-054.jpg


(Nov. 17, 2008) Pirates holding the crew of the Chinese fishing vessel FV Tian Yu 8 pass through the waters of the Indian Ocean while under observation by a U.S Navy Ship in the U.S. 5th Fleet area of responsibility. The ship was attacked Nov. 16 in the U.S. 5th Fleet area of responsibility and forced to proceed to an anchorage off the Somali coast. (U.S. Navy photo by Mass Communication Specialist 2nd Class Jason R. Zalasky/Released)
 

Gatordev

Well-Known Member
pilot
Site Admin
Contributor
I know I could probably look it up, but...

I wonder how many of those Maru class boats are out there. Those things are like roaches.
 

HeyJoe

Fly Navy! ...or USMC
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
I know I could probably look it up, but...

I wonder how many of those Maru class boats are out there. Those things are like roaches.

Likely infested with them as well (along with a rat population)
 

SkywardET

Contrarian
If I'm not mistaken, Afghanistan didn't have much of an opium problem when the Taliban ruled there. Iron fist and all that nasty business.

Just goes to show that the ends are not all that matter.


Supposedly the pirates have made much more room onto the news space than before, so because perception is reality...
 

HeyJoe

Fly Navy! ...or USMC
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
If I'm not mistaken, Afghanistan didn't have much of an opium problem when the Taliban ruled there. Iron fist and all that nasty business.

Yes and no. Omar banned in 2000 so just prior to 9/11 it was nearly non-existent, but for only for one season under his rule, but was it for good of the world or to keep locals from having too much access to a cash crop that could potentially arm resistence against the Taliban? The Taliban also used it for their own ends. Regardless, it's back to supplying more than 90% of the world's opium.
 

Old R.O.

Professional No-Load
None
Contributor
Now we can kill the bastard on land too!!!

The BBC article talks about bringing them to justice instead of dealing with pirates on the spot. Sounds to me like the keelhauling and the plank walking thingy would bring a certain amount of justice... and cheaper in the long run, too.
 

navy09

Registered User
None
Is it news to anyone that the Somalis aren't exactly well off?

These guys shoot AKs and RPGs at cruise ships. They hold merchant vessels for ransom to the tune of tens of millions of dollars. They're criminals. Boo-hoo.
 

Flash

SEVAL/ECMO
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
Thought this was worthy of sharing... Not that pirates are justified in doing what they do by any means, but the article provides some insight as to who they are and why they exist..

While there has been some dumping and illegal fishing in Somali waters since their country's collapse in 1991, it has little to do with the piracy going on right now. I find it mildy amusing, and sad, that the writer relies almost entirely on unverified reporting and the word of pirates themselves. Of course they have a good excuse for what they are doing, what else do you expect? "We are in it for the money and the chicks!" The writer also shows his bias by pointing the finger at the Europeans for the illegal fishing when the largest fishing fleets in the world are Asian. Why do you think Korean fishing ships keep getting seized? It ain't because the Somalis have something against kimchi or soju.

There is a simple reason for why the pirates do what they do, greed. Anything else is a story for writers like this idiot.

And Thull, good job on posting the article. While I disagree with the writer it is valuable to see an issue from all sides. Even if the other side is high on khat.
 

thull

Well-Known Member
.. While I disagree with the writer it is valuable to see an issue from all sides. Even if the other side is high on khat.

Thank you, sir... I agree the article is to be taken with a few grains of salt but thought it was an interesting read nonetheless..
 
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