So is it still feasible for Congress to issue letters of marque to private individuals and firms to help combat the threat of piracy? It seemed to work back in the day, why not now?
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The Great Pirates off the Somali Coast thread
- Thread starter Beefalo
- Start date
Because they are not an accepted part of international convention or law any more. This was pretty much codified by the Treaty of Paris in 1856 and while the US is not a signatory, by custom it is no longer acceptable.
In blunter terms, there was historically a very thin line between pirates and privateers, many went back and forth over that line several times. It would pose a myriad of legal and ethical problems for the privateers and the United States, since we would probably be held accountable for anything they do, for good or ill. Several of the 'bounty hunters' who went looking for wanted terrrorists in Afghansitan caused us nothing but trouble, I imagine the same would happen with privateers off of Somalia.
And you also have to think where the motivation for these privateers would come from, ever thought about that? The main motivation used to be prize money, what would be the motivation today? Khat? Beachfront property on the Puntland coast?
Leave the idea in the 18th century, where it belongs.
Well, they could bring back the concept of "head money". Related to prize money, but the crew got a certain amount of cash for each enemy sailor or privateer captured alive.
I usually keep a 5-10 thousand PI pesos handy for Manila trips....does this count?
I usually keep a 5-10 thousand PI pesos handy for Manila trips....does this count?
Is PI still like it used to be?
LBFM to Marine: "GI I love you no shit. Buy me drinky."
Followed a few days later by "God Dama you GI you bullshit. You mutha fucka you butterfly"
That is exactly what we did in Afghanistan, money for each Al Qaeda or Taliban dude that got turned in. We got some legit guys but a lot of chaff along the way too. There are actually a group of guys stuck in Gitmo, ready to be released, because we eventually figured out that they were not who they were said to be by the bounty hunters. We can't ship them back home because their home countries will probably fry threir nuts off. Some of this took years to figure out.
Then, where would we hold them? Where do we put them on trial? Who tries them? That is a serious problem with the ones we capture now. Often the pirates captured are realeased because no one is willing to try them.
Gets pretty hard when you actually start getting down to the details.
Mebbe I can save some "years" and help "figure" this "out" w/out becoming a government shill and/or a bean-counter and/or a "consultant" .... ???
Pirates?? Shoot 'em ... crush 'em ... kill 'em ... fuck 'em. Serious problem over.
They're PIRATES, for the love of God.
What was the original question, anyway ... ???
Mebbe I can save some "years" and help "figure" this "out" w/out becoming a government shill and/or a bean-counter and/or a "consultant" .... ???
Pirates?? Shoot 'em ... crush 'em ... kill 'em ... fuck 'em. Serious problem over.
They're PIRATES, for the love of God.
What was the original question, anyway ... ???
Well, what happens when they try and surrender before you kill them? Do you still go ahead and kill them? Or fuck 'em in your case? Don't ask don't tell I guess........
Then you wouldn't need to be a government shill to figure out that you are fucked, since you just violated the UCMJ, US and international law.
Back to square one.......
Well, what happens when they try and surrender before you kill them? Do you still go ahead and kill them? Or fuck 'em in your case? Don't ask don't tell I guess........
Then you wouldn't need to be a government shill to figure out that you are fucked, since you just violated the UCMJ, US and international law.
Back to square one.......
"Well, what happens when they try and surrender???"
Flash-man ... you couldn't be more clueless.
They are pirates, they don't give a fuck about you, me, the UCMJ, US and international law. Fuck them. I give them the same chance they'd give me -- and that they would give you, in case you didn't know.
Since when have politicians, bureaucrats, and lawyers ever won a fight? Or a war? If you're going to let the lawyers do your fighting for you, then you've lost from the get-go.
Your "experience" re: the question is obviously theoretical ... and in a way -- it is don't ask; don't tell ...
For a further reality check, I offer CDR Dudley W. "Mush" Morton and the USS WAHOO
Or perhaps you could look at and criticize my Dad's units lead when they captured SS Truppen after Malmedy ... they weren't too confused.
Sometimes you just forget about the lawyers (who can and do take either side of any argument) and do the right thing. Or stay in the office if you prefer and criticize others who get the job done ... it's your choice.
You certain about that? I was kinda thinking the same about you.......
No shit sherlock, but we gotta care. Why? We have rules and laws that we have to follow, unlike the thugs that roam the Somali coast. Do you honestly think that the world would not find out what really happened if we did something like that, in this internet/youtube/twitter age? Guess who's fucked then?
Ever heard of ROE? It's a fact of life. Sure, you can complain about it but it is not going to change that it will exist, written by lawyers and bureaucrats. The simple fact is that we have to deal with it, that is the reality, period. To think otherwise is the luxury of those who no longer have to deal with it.
Bold statement from someone I have never met.
I am familiar with the controversy surrounding CDR Morton, and I am aware of other incidents that our side did in previous wars. But just because we were on the winning side doesn't make those incidents right, and it doesn't change the fact that such things are against the UCMJ and US laws. Things that we swore to uphold. We executed Germans and Japanese for doing the same things, justifiably so. But while it was the 'norm' for them in certain cases it was certainly not the norm in ours. One can contrast our treatment of POW's with theirs, and our treatment of the defeated and occupied countries themselves.
So says someone from the comfort of their own office, or home if you prefer. I am a realist, and this is the reality that members of the military have to deal with. And that means one I have dealt with in the past when in a war zone and one I continue to deal with, since I am still a drilling reservist. Simple as that.
And no, you don't have a choice. You follow lawful orders, simple as that. You can whine, moan and complain about them, as I have done and continue to do sometimes, but you follow them nonetheless and get the job done. It doesn't matter if the other side chooses not to play by those 'rules', if they have any, you still gotta toe the line whether you like or not. Or else it will be very hard to forget about those lawyers, because they will be prosecuting your ass in court. Don't like it? Tough shit, find another line of work or another agency to work for (there are ones that work in those 'gray' areas, and do well). Because as long as the UCMJ and the laws of this country remain the way they are, there is really no other choice.
Flash, you're hopeless.
You remind me of the guy in a TV script who puts the "rights" of the bad guys ahead of winning the fight ... the guy who is doctrinaire, policy-driven, constipated, humorless, frustrating as hell and gets people killed as a result ...
But there's a precedent; we remember your ancestors: you're the modern day evolution of the guy we know, love, and remember from the McNamara "best & brightest" clique ...
The guy tactical types hate; the guy everyone would cheerfully frag if they could get away w/it ...
Speaking of "offices" ... you don't do this stuff at work, do you?? On the taxpayers dime ... ???
Press the Easy Button and make the ROE so that you schwack the pirates. You do not have to tell the world your ROE! Situation, your helo does a fly-by of the pirate vessel and witnesses incoming small-arms fire......answer it with decisive firepower. OK, say you want to take them alive......take freaking notes from the CG on how they stop smugglers......this really is not that hard......when the little fvckers shoot at you, shoot back with something big!