The million dollar question

[Screamtruth]

All right, this will stir it up.

I am sure this has been a topic of countless debates, but, for me it is a question that I have always had regarding the real differences between AF and Naval Aviation, besides the bullcrap like housing or training funds and other stuff. I am referring to the differences in the skills and tactics of the pilot.

Now, I hope we might have some AF pilots input as well, and don't get me wrong, I have used AF CAS with some desirable results, and I am no way implying that they are not as talented in the air. (Flaring is like squatting to pee...LOL....joking) But, do you guys think that with the additional skill set required to trap out in the fleet, there exists a slight edge for naval pilots, maybe a higher sense of concentration, control, or SA? Maybe a more aggressive and fearless mentality? I know this can go both ways, and a common answer will be that it depends on the pilot, but for discussion's sake, let's try to study this from a broad perspective and generalize.

For me, I think the Naval Aviators have an edge. I mean, it is like comparing the grunts and support guys. Both are necessary and have very important jobs, but the grunt lifestyle, has that little extra toughness that breeds an aggressive and brutal warfighter, in this case..the naval aviator.

:skull_125

 

[Punk]

You're only gonna get a $1 answer though.

Honestly, I think some other areas of our training suffer because of all the work we have to put into getting ready/becoming proficient for the boat. Unfortunately, there's only so many flight hours. So instead of getting in an extra ACM hop, we gotta do an FCLP period instead, just for an example.

However, I still wouldn't trade it for anything else the AF has to offer. They might be able to train in some areas more, they just can't get to the fight like we can. Afterall, you know all AF jet jocks are just pining to get a chance to land at the boat, just so to show that they can do it too.

I think it gives us skills that the AF can't duplicate. However, again, they make up for this in other areas. I don't think landing at the boat gives us a leg up on the AF tactically, but our training philosophy and the way we do business does (in some cases).

 

[SteveG75]

A lot of it has to do with culture. The AF is very good at what they do. So are we.

Banzai said it best:
http://www.tailhook.org/USN USAF.html

USN or USAF? by Bob Norris

Bob Norris is a former Naval aviator who also did a 3 year exchange tour flying the F-15 Eagle. He is now an accomplished author of entertaining books about US Naval Aviation including "Check Six" and "Fly-Off". Check out his web site at his web site. Click Here. In response to a letter from an aspiring fighter pilot on which military academy to attend, Bob replied with the following.

12 Feb 04

Young Man,

Congratulations on your selection to both the Naval and Air Force Academies. Your goal of becoming a fighter pilot is impressive and a fine way to serve your country. As you requested, I'd be happy to share some insight into which service would be the best choice. Each service has a distinctly different culture. You need to ask yourself "Which one am I more likely to thrive in?"

USAF Snapshot: The USAF is exceptionally well organized and well run. Their training programs are terrific. All pilots are groomed to meet high standards for knowledge and professionalism. Their aircraft are top-notch and extremely well maintained. Their facilities are excellent. Their enlisted personnel are the brightest and the best trained. The USAF is homogenous and macro. No matter where you go, you'll know what to expect, what is expected of you, and you'll be given the training & tools you need to meet those expectations. You will never be put in a situation over your head. Over a 20-year career, you will be home for most important family events. Your Mom would want you to be an Air Force pilot...so would your wife. Your Dad would want your sister to marry one.

Navy Snapshot: Aviators are part of the Navy, but so are Black shoes (surface warfare) and bubble heads (submariners). Furthermore, the Navy is split into two distinctly different Fleets (West and East Coast). The Navy is heterogeneous and micro. Your squadron is your home; it may be great, average, or awful. A squadron can go from one extreme to the other before you know it. You will spend months preparing for cruise and months on cruise. The quality of the aircraft varies directly with the availability of parts. Senior Navy enlisted are salt of the earth; you'll be proud if you earn their respect. Junior enlisted vary from terrific to the troubled kid the judge made join the service. You will be given the opportunity to lead these people during your career; you will be humbled and get your hands dirty. The quality of your training will vary and sometimes you will be over your head. You will miss many important family events. There will be long stretches of tedious duty aboard ship. You will fly in very bad weather and/or at night and you will be scared many times. You will fly with legends in the Navy and they will kick your ass until you become a lethal force. And some days - when the scheduling Gods have smiled upon you - your jet will catapult into a glorious morning over a far-away sea and you will be drop-jawed that someone would pay you to do it. The hottest girl in the bar wants to meet the Naval Aviator. That bar is in Singapore.

Bottom line, son, if you gotta ask...pack warm & good luck in Colorado.

Banzai

PS Air Force pilots wear scarves and iron their flight suits.

 

[Punk]

Nice info Steve. Gawd I hope I get a great squadron when I get in. Anybody have any stories about a shitty sqdr?

Wait 2 years if you don't like it. You can be in the best, most chill squadron one year, then change out a couple dept heads or someone in the head office, and things can do a 180 quick.

 

[macattack]

Back to the original question though-I'm not sure it's necessarily that the AF guys don't have that toughness you talk about, it's just they may have chosen the AF for the millions of other factors that go into what service they want to fly with (or by proxy join the Navy over the AF). Just my two cents.

 

[Screamtruth]

Back to the original question though-I'm not sure it's necessarily that the AF guys don't have that toughness you talk about, it's just they may have chosen the AF for the millions of other factors that go into what service they want to fly with (or by proxy join the Navy over the AF). Just my two cents.

I agree, and I do not think they lack in any toughness ratings, but my point or belief is that the Naval aviator has an edge due to circumstance. Being part of the carrier operation to me is a little harder in terms of day to day life. If you read the article by Mr. Norris, he points out the differences between the lives of the pilot. Harder life to me has the ability to produce an independent person, who is not phased by a dynamic and stressful environment, and is used to having things stacked against him/her.

I do not know if this holds truth to anyone else, but from my experiences and what has shaped me, this has significant meaning.

 

[TurnandBurn55]

Honestly, I think some other areas of our training suffer because of all the work we have to put into getting ready/becoming proficient for the boat. Unfortunately, there's only so many flight hours. So instead of getting in an extra ACM hop, we gotta do an FCLP period instead, just for an example.

Well, the Air Force also has a tendency to specialize more than we do. Their F-15 guys are 'not a pound for air-to-ground', their A-10 guys are CAS specialists... the Navy? Well, Hornet guys have to do everything and anything.

I wouldn't argue that makes them 'better' than us by any stretch of the imagination... it creates an insular and inflexible mentality among USAF types which doesn't serve them well in the current threat environment. The Navy tends to be more 'can do'.. the Air Force more 'we've always done it this way'.

Nonetheless, there's something to be said for training to one major mission, and doing it well...

 

[Punk]

Well, the Air Force also has a tendency to specialize more than we do. Their F-15 guys are 'not a pound for air-to-ground', their A-10 guys are CAS specialists... the Navy? Well, Hornet guys have to do everything and anything.

I wouldn't argue that makes them 'better' than us by any stretch of the imagination... it creates an insular and inflexible mentality among USAF types which doesn't serve them well in the current threat environment. The Navy tends to be more 'can do'.. the Air Force more 'we've always done it this way'.

Nonetheless, there's something to be said for training to one major mission, and doing it well...

Exactly

what's the phrase, good at everything but great at nothing?

 

[riley]

Toughness? That is a funny conversation listening between the Navy and the Air Force on who is tougher....

Comparing a Naval Aviator to a grunt is just not right

Marine Weapons Handling Rules....
Treat every weapon as if it were loaded.
Never point your weapon at anything you do not intend to shoot.
Keep your finger straight and off the trigger until you are ready to fire.
Keep your weapon on safe until you intend to fire

Navy Coffee Handling Rules.....
Treat every cup as if it were filled
Never pour a cup of coffee you do not intend to drink
Keep your hands off the coffee cup until you are ready to drink
Keep the lid on the coffee until you intend to drink

From talking with a buddy of mine who is an A-10 pilot, it sounds like the Air Force gets a lot more flying time. I think that usually equates to being better at a given task. Who is or who isn't more flexible is a different question. I say both services have a tendency of being inflexible.

I tell my friends who are just looking to fly and do nothing else to look into the Air Force or the Air National Guard. If they are looking for other opportunities and still enjoy flying, I tell them to look at all the services then and see which culture fits them best.

 

[Screamtruth]

Exactly

what's the phrase, good at everything but great at nothing?

Yup,
Jack of all trades, master at none.

 

[Screamtruth]

Toughness? That is a funny conversation listening between the Navy and the Air Force on who is tougher....

Comparing a Naval Aviator to a grunt is just not right.

I meant that the NA's are the grunts of the aviation (military that is) community. I didn't mean actual "toughness" (Not that I think aviators are a bunch of pussies either) but I meant in terms of the mental game. I mean from what I hear about carrier ops, the schedule is hectic as are the traps. I mean, as if you are not tired enough after a long mission, G's and all, then to top it off, it's time to find mother in the dark and land. That can make for a long day, I am sure.

I would much rather worry about getting kicked in the face than all of that.
Muay Thai anyone?

 

[jarhead]

if somebody was to ask me which service i would recommend to go fly in, i'd say the AF. why? the Air Farce main focus is the air; the air is a side note for the Navy & Marines. an AF pilot goes to work and his main job is to fly & he gets good at that. a squid or jarhead pilot goes to work, pushes some paperwork, supervises his sailors & Marines, pushes some more paperwork, then goes to fly if he gets the chance. that's not saying AF dudes don't do paperwork, but they don't have 4 or 5 side jobs they are held accountable for. along with that, the AF spends their money on flying; the Navy & Marine Corps have ships & ground troops to share their money with. plus, the Navy/Marine Corps are always playing catch up to the AF in technology .... seems like the AF are always pushing ahead & NAVAIR takes a step back. few examples? F-22 v F/A-18E/F ... F-35A v F-35B/C ... SNIPER POD v ATFLIR (and that's not even rdy yet, it's embarrassing to see a SH with a 1st generation FLIR pod hanging from it) ... Link 16, Aim-9X, HMS, the list goes on & on.

anyways, it's fun to make fun of the AF, but, except for their extremely anal & sometimes illogical ways of doing things, they are pretty good at what they do. it helps to have the money though

2¢

 

[SteveG75]

Things I like about the AF:

1. SAC box lunches
2. Tinker burgers
3. Bars in ready rooms
4. Beating AF guys at crud

 

[makana]

From talking with a buddy of mine who is an A-10 pilot, it sounds like the Air Force gets a lot more flying time. I think that usually equates to being better at a given task. Who is or who isn't more flexible is a different question. I say both services have a tendency of being inflexible.

I tell my friends who are just looking to fly and do nothing else to look into the Air Force or the Air National Guard. If they are looking for other opportunities and still enjoy flying, I tell them to look at all the services then and see which culture fits them best.

The API A-pool hardly qualifies you to make such assumptions or give quality advice on the subject. Unless you have more personal knowledge and/or experience in Naval aviation vs. Air Force aviation that your profile doesn't mention, you might want to hold off on giving any future-deciding advice on military flying. I understand the whole "practice makes perfect" mindset you mention but my IPs have been an even split of USN and AF (VT-3, VT-31, VP-30) and I wouldn't say one is better than the other solely based on their branch of service. It usually just boils down to the individual pilot.

 

[jamnww]

NOTE: Author has no experience in the fleet with Naval Aviation and none at all with the Air Force.

I once heard someone say once that any man who judges by the group is a peewit, you have to take a man one at a time judge them that way.

So who is better? Who cares, look for things that you can actually tally. Amount of flight time per month, collateral duties...etc.