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The Monster COD thread (homage to the C-2A Greyhound)

phrogdriver

More humble than you would understand
pilot
Super Moderator
MasterBates said:
Why would it take Grumman 4 years to spool up for production? Would it REALLY take that long, or would they want a "premium" to crank the COD line up in 1 year when we shoot ourselves in the rear, and its 2016 with no CODs on order?

I could be wrong but isn't the C-2A the oldest T/M/S flying? I know they were re procured, but wasn't that just the original C-2A with whatever AFC's had been incorporated by then?

C-130s are older and E-2s about the same age, but they are on the E-2C with the E-2D having its maiden flight next month..

I'm pretty sure the C-130s are the oldest--I'm pretty sure there are some '50s vintage ones still around. The -46 still has to be in the running--I think the oldest one in the Corps is a '64.

I'm also wondering how old the oldest B-52 in current service is.

...anyway, back to our regularly scheduled programming. To my knowledge, there is exactly 1 currently qualified Navy V-22 pilot. I don't see the Navy getting a brand new rotorcraft this soon after buying brand-new H-60 variants. So, for the original poster, the Corps is the way to go if you have a tiltrotor jones.

The COD thing is an opening for the V-22, but...

How much weight is a COD required to lift? To maximize lifting ability, the V-22 would want a STO deck roll. As much as their panties are in a bunch over the STOVL F-35, I can't see them wanting a V-22 ruining their precious deck cycle.
 

MasterBates

Well-Known Member
I know the -130 and -52 are older designs. I was just thinking that they have moved on to newer variants, while the C-2A(R) is still plodding along.

It was essentially the forum equivalent of thinking out loud.. Which are probably 1/2 of my posts.
 

phrogdriver

More humble than you would understand
pilot
Super Moderator
MasterBates said:
I know the -130 and -52 are older designs. I was just thinking that they have moved on to newer variants, while the C-2A(R) is still plodding along.

It was essentially the forum equivalent of thinking out loud.. Which are probably 1/2 of my posts.

Older designs, but also older airframes, too, I think. The USMC "T"-model 130s are ancient.
 

HooverPilot

CODPilot
pilot
Super Moderator
Contributor
Just producing an identical C-2 with upgraded avionics would not meet the desires of the navy today. The C-2B should be the "next Generation" COD. There needs to be improvements in range, efficiencies, countermeasures, and a variety of capabilities. It is often mentioned that the next COD should be able to tank and also be a tanker if needed. Consideration should be given to new sticks for the plane too - the loading on our MLG is very high and actually rules out a fair bit of runways due to load bearing strength. Is a prop the right answer for the nextgen COD? Maybe a nice fan like the GE -34 generation engines....
 

JLockheed

Wanderer
With all this COD replacement talk going around, does anyone know if any other aircraft were consider to replace the C-2? Say, something like the C-27J etc...?
 

phrogpilot73

Well-Known Member
It typically takes roughly 2 years to build an aircraft so the additional two years would be to go through PDR/CDR and get the production tooling ready to go; not an insignificant task.
You just made me shudder... PDR for the 53K is forthcoming... Still working on closing out items from SRR/SFR...
 

HeyJoe

Fly Navy! ...or USMC
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
You just made me shudder... PDR for the 53K is forthcoming... Still working on closing out items from SRR/SFR...

Indeed...lots of moving parts before you go into production and if you don't get it right up front, it's much more expensive and problematic to fix later
 

kmac

Coffee Drinker
pilot
Super Moderator
Contributor
Allow me to chime in with a few points here and there.
C-2B (by Northrop Grumman): I'm not entirely sure that the company even has the right tools to be able to build it. I'm sure there are a lot of old C-2A tools in some shed somewhere, but we're currently having issues with the C-2A that are difficult to solve because of the era in which it was designed. A lot of the engineers now scratch their heads when they see something that just "doesn't make sense" and yet has worked for 4 decades now. Making a C-2B would be a new aircraft moreso than simply a follow-on to the original or reprocured ones. As Hoover(COD)pilot mentioned, the current platform just isn't very capable. We have 1 main mission, and at best a couple side-missions (paradrops for one). We need an aircraft that can deliver cargo to the ship, carry SEALs many miles into bad-guy territory, and of course give/take fuel. It's pretty much been the trend of the military... do more with less. Unfortunately we're quite limited with the "more" part right now.

Why the V-22 will not work: There are design and operational limitations to the aircraft that just don't allow it to fit in the traditional COD role. Kiss fixed-wing ops at the ship goodbye. Instead, imagine doing "helo breaks" that last over an hour (for the offload and loading of cargo). It would be like when the -53s come aboard during the wee hours. Second, without pressurization we'd be limited on how far we could travel with pax, at least with one bag of gas. The ceiling automatically becomes 10,000' unless you figure out a way to get the passengers to all have oxygen (comfortably). Third, the internal volume is smaller. It is very rare that a C-2 reaches its weight limit compared to reaching the max volume on the inside of the airframe. Simply loading and unloading while aboard the ship would mean less goods coming to and fro per mission. As I mentioned before, the V-22 just can't fulfil the C-2 role as we know it.

Why the V-22 will work: The biggest challenge is to overcome the mentality of "that's how we do business." The V-22 is more capable, but with different capabilities. The flying into bad-guy territory with SEALs can be covered by this airframe. Being able to take fuel is covered, which means 10,000' really doesn't limit range as long as you have a tanker. The challenge now is to figure out how you're going to move cargo on and off the ship. Although it won't work for fixed-wing ops, the V-22 can land on other platforms (small boys, oil rigs) and transfer cargo that way. Helos can then take the smaller cargo back and forth as needed. If big items need to come to the ship, then they would come just like they do with helos now... VERTREP. Even though the internal cubic space is less, the weight allowance is greater. And the V-22 is not confined to carry stuff on the inside. It can actually carry more items than a C-2 if you were to simply take it underneath.

Challenges ahead: Again, the biggest idea to overcome is the "inside the box" for what the purpose of the aircraft is. This means changes to how dets are organized, the missions that are given (cargo vs spec ops vs ???), and who actually owns the asset (airwing vs admiral vs combatant commander vs ???). Without a foreseeable future for the C-2 follow on, it really looks like the V-22 will win by default.
 

bert

Enjoying the real world
pilot
Contributor
^^ Really good post. There is a lot more that goes into this than most think.
 

A4sForever

BTDT OLD GUY
pilot
Contributor
Allow me to chime in with a few points here and there.....
Wow ... I'm impressed. I didn't know there was that much to COD-World.

I just thought it was letters from home, movies, and the occasional deck launch .... :)

codlaunchhq9.jpg
 

HooverPilot

CODPilot
pilot
Super Moderator
Contributor
Allow me to chime in with a few points here and there.


Nice job Kmac - you said all that and a bag of snacks. There has been lots of discussions about the follow on aircraft for the C-2A for several years now. The first round of AOA has been done and the V-22 was NOT the winner, the recommendation was for the follow on airframe to be a new design (often refered to as the C-2B). The CNO endorsed the C-2B concept himself in a speech recently where he also said that the V-22 is not the right airframe to replace the COD. There is a lot of momentum towards a clean sheet replacement airframe, but money will be the final answer. No airframe in the Navy of the future will be allowed to be a single mission airframe either. You will continue to see aircraft that are capable of/required to fulfill several missions. I think the C-2 replacement is going to be an even more robust platform that described by kmac. The options are limitless once you start to think outside the box and consider the jack of all trades requirements of the future Naval Aircraft. Some of the discussions I have been privy too lately really have been impressive on where many in the Navy see this community going in the future and roadmap to get us there is pretty cool too.
 

insanebikerboy

Internet killed the television star
pilot
None
Contributor
Why the V-22 will work: ....the V-22 can land on other platforms (small boys, oil rigs) and transfer cargo that way

Curious, is the V-22 intended (or able) to operate off of small boys? I read where it's shorter in length than the -60 but it's 30-ish feet wider than the 60's rotor diameter. Are the flight decks on a destroyer/cruiser big enough for it to fit?
 

Flash

SEVAL/ECMO
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
Wow, a thread about nothing but the mighty COD........my life is complete.....;)

In all seriousness, that was an excellent post Kmac. And i thought you COD guys just sat on the beach and drank, I guess you still have some work to do killing the rest of those functioning brain cells.........;)
 
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