The SHOW: Airlines still a "good gig"??

[FrankTheTank]

Pretty wide range of consequences across the industry. Cargo guys have been doing well. Delta and United both reached agreements to avoid furloughs but with concessions especially for junior guys. AA and some others furloughed but those guys are back now with the second bailout. SWA offered paid leaves but eventually threatened to furlough until the second bill passed. I jumped on the opportunity to get paid six figures to not work. In the meantime I can travel and work as a reservist when I want two pay checks.

It’s beyond doing well... EVERYBODY (freight pilot) had a record year. Our hiring forecast has been increased. Our seniority list is being grown by a thousand pilots. We are wet leasing into the New Year. Our ramp has like 5 different ACMI carriers with something like 16 extra jets. (747s & 767s). Historically we wet lease 8 airframes in Nov & Dec. I forget what the penalty pay is but it’s like a million for every month. I’ll try to look it up next time I’m flying. I don’t look at some of the random contract stuff, except when I’m bored at cruise.

I think for the people carriers, domestic will bounce back quick. I think International will return slow and cause the most harm to those folks.

 

[HAL Pilot]

Isn’t truck driving simply the same Show on a different stage??

Until the engine stops...

 

[Jim123]

Until the engine stops...

The 250 below 10k rule has a few more variations too.

 

[ea6bflyr]

The 250 below 10k rule has a few more variations too.

Once you declare an emergency, there are no rules.

 

[FrankTheTank]

Once you declare an emergency, there are no rules.

Tell that to the Chief Pilot! You don’t have carte blanche. You just get to selectively and with purpose break certain rules.

 

[sevenhelmet]

Once you declare an emergency, and log it in ASAP/ASRS, there are no rules.

FIFY.

 

[FrankTheTank]

FIFY.

FWIW This isn’t entirely true. Not trying to be a dick but ASAP =/= Get out of jail card. Just setting the record accurate because there is a misconception associated with the ASAP program.

 

[Jim123]

Airline world ASAP is not the same thing as naval air ASAP. (The naval air program is less organized and it has looser rules.)

 

[wink]

FWIW This isn’t entirely true. Not trying to be a dick but ASAP =/= Get out of jail card. Just setting the record accurate because there is a misconception associated with the ASAP program.

You do not get ASAP protections unless "accepted into the program." So, you file, and it is reviewed for purposeful violations or ignorance of procedure and rules you should know as a qualified crewmember. Clear that hurdle, and you are accepted into the program. Mistakes, innocent errors in judgement, yup, pretty much a get out of jail free card. Take off with a tail wind over limits so you can avoid the big ass thunderstorm off the other runway, ASAP is no help. Set up the wrong approach in the box and blow through final, or bust a low level off on a missed approach, ASAP will protect you. Folks that don't get ASAP protection are usually fat headed ass holes who think they know better than anyone else and subsequently have no respect for the rules.

 

[Gatordev]

Who actually gives the "protection?" Is it the FAA, the cert holder, or both? Is it a 121 thing or does it apply to 135 or 91?

I've brought it up within my company, asking if they wanted us to participate, but no one really seems to say anything other than, "yeah, that's another tool..." We have our own contracted reporting system, but that's more like whatever that system that generates HAZREPs and SIRs is called.

 

[HAL Pilot]

Who actually gives the "protection?" Is it the FAA, the cert holder, or both? Is it a 121 thing or does it apply to 135 or 91?

The ASAP system is a 3 way binding agreement between the FAA, company and pilots. Once your ASAP is accepted by 2 of the 3, the protections kick in. It is supposed to be accepted by all parties unless it was a reckless or intentional violation of the FARs or OPSPECs without just cause. It is not a completely get out of jail free card. While the FAA cannot take certificate action against you and the company cannot take punitive action, they can still put letters of documentation in your file and require remedial training. I had an incident a few years back where I had a letter put in my company file for 18 months (then removed) and our FAA POI had me do a line check.

The NASA ASRS is FAA only. It protects you from action against your license but does nothing to protect you from your employer.

 

[taxi1]

I had an incident a few years back...

Sigh

Stuff like that makes you yearn for the days when there was nothing but water beneath you, and your only restriction was to keep the altimeter in the positive numbers.

 

[Gatordev]

The NASA ASRS is FAA only. It protects you from action against your license but does nothing to protect you from your employer.

Ah, okay, I'm (incorrectly) combining ASRS and ASAP. Reading the FAA's ASAP page, I don't get a warm and fuzzy feeling that the certificate holder has to participate, just that it's invited to participate, but maybe that's my own skepticism creeping in.

 

[sevenhelmet]

FWIW This isn’t entirely true. Not trying to be a dick but ASAP =/= Get out of jail card. Just setting the record accurate because there is a misconception associated with the ASAP program.

I was dog-piling on the "EP = no rules" joke, but yes, I'm aware of what ASAP is and isn't. I also recognize that ASAP is a different system from ASRS, although the two can be- and often are- used in parallel.

Ah, okay, I'm (incorrectly) combining ASRS and ASAP. Reading the FAA's ASAP page, I don't get a warm and fuzzy feeling that the certificate holder has to participate, just that it's invited to participate, but maybe that's my own skepticism creeping in.

As far as I know, no certificate holder is required to participate in ASAP (mine didn't when I was first hired, but now does), and no employee is required use ASAP if their employer participates. The voluntary nature of the program is one of its better features, in my opinion.

 

[wink]

If an employer dies not participate in ASAP, they do not get the benefit of the data collected, which is, like ASRS, the real point of the program. Being able to see trends and spikes for training purposes is just too valuable to the carrier.

The vast majority of ASAP reports of incidents are accepted into the program. We used to get a report of the narratives and dispositions. It was very rare to see cases not accepted into the program. It was also rare to have a disposition that went beyond "your bad. be more careful" or "work on your CRM", something like that. No letter in the file or meeting over the big green table.