The SHOW: Airlines still a "good gig"??

[SynixMan]

Technique only, but when possible I'd try to get SNAs holding outside the PCola TRACON area so they could hear "real ATC calls". Usually only possible on an out/in or CCX. I know CCXs are seen as boondoggles from a lot of folks, but the real world experience I got on those as both an SNA and IP grew me way more as an aviator than anything else I did.

 

[Gatordev]

Since we're on the subject of holding... A couple of months ago I was coming back from a call and had to shoot an actual RNAV approach into our base airport. Some dude in a Piper that apparently could only do 12.3 knots got there ahead of me, and since the airport is handled by Center and the tower wasn't open, I was told to hold. The approach had holding at the center of the RNAV "T," but that's where the other guy was (and apparently at ALL the altitudes...thanks, Center). So Center told me to hold at the end of one of the "T" waypoints. No holding was depicted, and Center was more worried about all the other airliners going into MCO, so the most I got was fix, altitude, and EFC.

Due to my -530 wizardy, I set up the hold manually so I could just make the autopilot do the work (although I still had to swap back and forth between NAV and HDG modes manually), but I was curious if others have had that happen on a RNAV. Is it legal to give me that, given it's on the approach segment? I can see the argument that it would be legal, but it was still a weird clearance.

 

[Jim123]

... but I was curious if others have had that happen on a RNAV. Is it legal to give me that, given it's on the approach segment? I can see the argument that it would be legal, but it was still a weird clearance.

Not an RNAV IAF or IF, but I've been held on RNAV STAR fixes (microburst near the airport threw a wrench into things for about half an hour). Instead of stacking everybody vertically like a marshal, center and approach did it horizontally with one airplane holding at each fix, then moving everybody to the next successive fix, one by one but practically at the same time. It felt like when you clear the bottom row in tetris over and over again. So lots of talking for ATC to accomplish that, I think we had two different holding clearances and so did everybody else before the train really got moving again, but the buttonology was actually pretty easy because it was obvious what they were doing with everybody.

 

[Gatordev]

Good point, I should have mentioned our hold point was one of the IAFs, but still not "easy" to hold via automation. It is interesting that ATC doesn't like to think three dimensionally sometimes. Other times it's not a problem (like at Whiting/PNS TRACON...although that's a very different animal, in a good way).

 

[wink]

Came back to the cockpit after hitting the head. FO (his leg) says we got a hold at an intersection, no hold depicted. Says he got it all set up in the box. I look at it and sure enough, it's an oval. After a couple turns Center says, hey you are on the wrong side turning wrong way. Before I can say anything he says direct to Lubbock, hold within 20 miles bearing and turns your discretion. ?
Once they have altitude separation I don't think ATC cares too much about holds. I always was one to be a stickler about EFCs though.

 

[SynixMan]

Good point, I should have mentioned our hold point was one of the IAFs, but still not "easy" to hold via automation. It is interesting that ATC doesn't like to think three dimensionally sometimes. Other times it's not a problem (like at Whiting/PNS TRACON...although that's a very different animal, in a good way).

Piper had a effed up transponder and ATC couldn't assure altitude deconfliction? I saw more than a few transponders in Lower Bama confuse ATC mightily below 10k

 

[Jim123]

It is interesting that ATC doesn't like to think three dimensionally sometimes. Other times it's not a problem (like at Whiting/PNS TRACON...although that's a very different animal, in a good way).

There I was, in the stack over the Saufley VOR, in and out of the clouds with 57s and T-6s above and below all the way up to angels 10. An airliner shot underneath at 2000 feet on its way to home plate.

The above really happened, well, once ever.

 

[FinkUFreaky]

The EFC time is also when you are expected to commence your approach if you go lost comms. I ask for it solely for that reason - having once gone lost comms in IFR while holding at GCN VOR flying a Twin Otter in a non-radar environment..

Fair enough and agreed, and I may not have made this part clear; I'm talking about when in VMC conditions. It'd be different in actual IMC. Most Inav training however is obviously done VMC; were I to go lost comms I'm not shooting an approach at KMOB anyways; squawking 7600 and heading home via course rules with a rock the wings in the break etc.

 

[FinkUFreaky]

Fair enough and agreed, and I may not have made this part clear; I'm talking about when in VMC conditions. It'd be different in actual IMC. Most Inav training however is obviously done VMC; were I to go lost comms I'm not shooting an approach at KMOB anyways; squawking 7600 and heading home via course rules with a rock the wings in the break etc.

To clear up my earlier posts, Sherman field I believe does actually give lost comm instructions when IMC. And holding clearances are more normal. It's just rare that you get a good IMC day in southern Alabama that isn't rife with SIGMETs. Or in the winter, icing etc. It happens, but rarely. So it's more likely to be WX CNX or a fairly clear day.

 

[FinkUFreaky]

There I was, in the stack over the Saufley VOR, in and out of the clouds with 57s and T-6s above and below all the way up to angels 10. An airliner shot underneath at 2000 feet on its way to home plate.

The above really happened, well, once ever.

Reminds me of how many times I used my defog switch and vent control lever... Yet it's in the climb and descent checklist every time haha! I like defog switch in the before landing checklist, bc it makes a significant difference in wafeoff/climbout performance. But it's silly in the other two. Don't get me started on the number of times transponder is now in the checklist since ADSB; if I were a student I'd start ignoring checklists because of their stupidity (studs, please disregard).

 

[scoolbubba]

You're giving me a lot of credit in thinking that I remember to do a climb or descent checklist.

 

[Jim123]

Cowboys like you two be taxiing the T-6 with the master arm switch not on safe..


?

 

[Randy Daytona]

There I was, in the stack over the Saufley VOR, in and out of the clouds with 57s and T-6s above and below all the way up to angels 10. An airliner shot underneath at 2000 feet on its way to home plate.

The above really happened, well, once ever.

There I was, in the autorotation stack over the Santa Rosa OLF, in and out of the pattern with FAM’s, TRANSFAM’s and formation tacticals above and below all the way up to cherubs 9. A FAA King Air shot underneath at 700 ft on a check of the now defunct Tacan 043 approach, I’m sure announcing intentions on some unknown VHF frequency while every Navy helicopter in the pattern was up the standard UHF.

The above really happened.

 

[Gatordev]

Piper had a effed up transponder and ATC couldn't assure altitude deconfliction? I saw more than a few transponders in Lower Bama confuse ATC mightily below 10k

Maybe. I think it was just ATC not really wanting to deal with either of us as that controller is also working the high freqs for the STARs into MCO. I didn't push the issue because I thought it would be one turn and then done, but 4 turns later... Tower doesn't have radar, so that does help when their open.

There I was, in the stack over the Saufley VOR, in and out of the clouds with 57s and T-6s above and below all the way up to angels 10. An airliner shot underneath at 2000 feet on its way to home plate.

The above really happened, well, once ever.

I meant more holding on CRs when NSE's runway was clobbered. ATC was always very good at stacking us and then constantly checking on our fuel states in case we needed to divert to NDZ.

 

[Jim123]

I meant more holding on CRs when NSE's runway was clobbered. ATC was always very good at stacking us and then constantly checking on our fuel states in case we needed to divert to NDZ.

I think a lot of it is their familiarity and comfort with the IP cadre on the other end of the radio. Maybe they figure we're definitely not going to hit each other or we're not going to crow about separation when there is perfectly good separation.

?‍♂️

When there's a delay at a busy airport, stacking airliners close to the airport instead of spreading them out horizontally for a hundred miles on the arrival, and using shuttle descents would actually be nicer for the airliners. The gas you save holding at 20,000 feet instead of 10 or below translates into a lot more breathing room before you have to divert. For fuel, if I can't "descend via," which is a near-idle profile, I'd rather get something like "maintain present altitude/ __ feet and continue inbound on the __ arrival, hold at ___ expected further clearance __" and hold at a high altitude close instead of a medium altitude medium distance away. I'm sure stacking airplanes clutters the controller's screen in terms of keeping track of who's exactly where, vertically (so who to talk to first, second, third), but obviously it's doable.