10 years is a long time but I think you're gonna lose that bet.
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The SHOW: Airlines still a "good gig"??
- Thread starter A4sForever
- Start date
10 years is a long time but I think you're gonna lose that bet.
Not all of our 737s have it.
"Well, if you only had flaps 10 selected, how could you establish the proper descent profile without exceeding ATC assigned speed?"
@HAL Pilot , @scoolbubba
@HAL Pilot , @scoolbubba
I'm confused. When you are in VNAV you can't set a speed by selecting it and pulling the knob on your flight control panel?
I got my 737 type on and have flown a -300 and you could. I assume all the later versions are as if not more capable. The only Boeing I've flown without VNAV was the 727 and I've been told the 737-200 was the same set up as the 727, i.e. no VNAV. What type of 737 doesn't have VNAV with speed intervention?
Everyday I spend on the Airbus, more Boeing penguins leave the iceberg. This could well have been one of them.
Not exactly. The NG and the MAX have both speed and altitude intervention. I think the NGs were built for it but you had to pay for it; on some of ours the button is covered up.
So if you’re on a STAR in VNAV Path and ATC gives you a new speed, you hit the button, throw in the speed, and you go into VNAV Speed. No legs page, no descent page. You can immediately put in the speed, and then go mess with the box to put the new assigned speed into the legs page or descent page as necessary, and then go close the speed intervene window, and it will remain in VNAV Speed until it recaptures the Path.
Altitude intervene is an easy way to recruise to a new altitude or double clicking it to delete an altitude restriction in the box.
Anecdotally, the handful of times I flew the MAX, if you have a tailwind it has a very difficult time maintaining the path and if you get a late descent for whatever reason it doesn’t catch up very well at wall. Lots of level change and V/S on the STAR, asking ATC for altitude relief, and we hit the bottom altitude maybe a mile prior. Other than that, very fun to hand fly, and the PTT button on the glare shield, 756 style, was great, as was the second cup holder.
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Clearly United doesn’t understand VNAV. They should get that guy from Hawaiian to come by
This is what I was getting at. I haven't flown a 73 since mid April, so I'm definitely dealing with slippery penguins. But yea, I've only ever seen Speed Intervene used to catch back up to path or if ATC asks you to speed up or slow down or do both at the same time until you can get the VNAV page reprogrammed. Alt Intv knocks out restrictions on the leg pages, which is nice. Right as the rona hit, we started finally using VNAV for takeoff. I know....welcome to the 1990s!
Also agree on the max. They're slick, which is great for efficiency, but not great when DEN center hangs you at 410 to the marker after swapping the arrival on you three times with a speed restriction and then says 'whoops....can you make it?'
Well, duh, pardner. of course we can.
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@mad dog see what you have to look forward to? MOAR room for Dunkin.
I think my record for runway changes there is three.
(1) ATIS lied to us, (2) Center changed our STAR, (3) Approach gave us a different runway.
Here's a bit of further nerdery for the thread, for anybody reading it and scratching their heads it's a seemingly big deal between pushing buttons or maintaining basic stick and rudder (and throttle) skills. When we're talking about "hand flying" a SID, SIDs are usually easier to fly. There might be one or two level offs on the way out (usually "no higher than"), sometimes a speed restriction and sometimes not (always 250 under 10,000 though), but SIDs are generally much less complicated than STARs. The other thing working in your favor is a SID is like getting on the freeway and heading out of town- the farther away you get the lighter the traffic gets, so it's easy to go faster and higher. STARs are like the opposite, the most challenging ones feel a lot like blasting into a complicated freeway interchange with lots of exit lanes, flyovers, sweeping curves, and the need to be set up for the correct lane really early... and sometimes that changes with not much heads-up.
When you set up the box right and you're not dealt any wildcards (strong tailwinds that make your descent angle way too steep, thunderstorm avoidance) then the people back in the tube only feel a few lazy turns. Finesse. Strong winds up high aren't usually as strong on the way down and everybody knows to generally anticipate stuff like that.
If a couple things don't go your way (might be your mistake or someone else's, might not be anybody's mistake) then it's not quite so easy to finesse it. Last minute adjustments might get felt as anything but finesse to those people (who spent good money on their tickets). Even some light turbulence can combined with being a bit high on profile can complicate it- in smooth air then it'd be easy to dive steeper to make a crossing restriction, let the airplane go a bit fast for a couple minutes, but in bumpy air an extra 30 knots of speed is the difference between a mildly bumpy ride and shaking the shit out of your passengers. It also makes your cabin crew's job a lot harder than it should be while they're trying to pack everything up for the landing. Worst case you really screw it up you might chuck a flight attendant into the ceiling, or a pax who had to make that last minute trip to the lav after you turned on the seat belt signs... that's rare but it's no joke.
The tech is out there to computerize this stuff even better than it already is, and I'm not trying to make it sound like the job is oh so hard, but some days there really is a lot more to it than just pushing a few buttons and keeping an eye on old George.
When you set up the box right and you're not dealt any wildcards (strong tailwinds that make your descent angle way too steep, thunderstorm avoidance) then the people back in the tube only feel a few lazy turns. Finesse. Strong winds up high aren't usually as strong on the way down and everybody knows to generally anticipate stuff like that.
If a couple things don't go your way (might be your mistake or someone else's, might not be anybody's mistake) then it's not quite so easy to finesse it. Last minute adjustments might get felt as anything but finesse to those people (who spent good money on their tickets). Even some light turbulence can combined with being a bit high on profile can complicate it- in smooth air then it'd be easy to dive steeper to make a crossing restriction, let the airplane go a bit fast for a couple minutes, but in bumpy air an extra 30 knots of speed is the difference between a mildly bumpy ride and shaking the shit out of your passengers. It also makes your cabin crew's job a lot harder than it should be while they're trying to pack everything up for the landing. Worst case you really screw it up you might chuck a flight attendant into the ceiling, or a pax who had to make that last minute trip to the lav after you turned on the seat belt signs... that's rare but it's no joke.
The tech is out there to computerize this stuff even better than it already is, and I'm not trying to make it sound like the job is oh so hard, but some days there really is a lot more to it than just pushing a few buttons and keeping an eye on old George.
One thing I wish airliners had were foot talk switches. For the old people here think of the old style high beams switch on the floor. The helicopter had two of them. One was for ics, the other was for radio. I could talk in/out without the use of my hands. It seems like such an easy thing, yet I’ve never even heard of it on an airplane.
Loved having those but they were a double edged sword for sure. Stuff would go out over the radio that were meant for the “circle of trust” of the flight crew. So many times.
