And illegal, FWIW
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The SHOW: Airlines still a "good gig"??
- Thread starter A4sForever
- Start date
Now, I am about as far as one can get from the SHOW and still be a pilot, but with reference to automation and other advances in the cockpit I found this article interesting...
Stepping down in automation—the real lesson for children of the magenta line : Air Facts Journal
Van Vanderburgh and the American Airlines Training Department determined that pilots flying the new automated jets were becoming “Automation Dependent Pilots.” One of Van’s slides defines such a pilot as one who does not select the proper level of automation for the task and loses situational...airfactsjournal.com
How much time do guys, on average, spend flying the aircraft vs managing the system?
It depends. If the departure is straight forward on a beautiful flying day and I've got an itch to hand fly, I fly till after the VNAV pitchover so somewhere 12-14000'. If it's a busy departure or weird weather or any combination of factors that require more penguins, or if I'm just feeling lazy, george gets it at 1000ish feet.
Our VNAV is classic boeing...it will put you right through the overspeed clacker to keep you on the geometric path, so I use(d) the descend now function 5-10 miles prior to the calculated top of descent a lot when given a descend via clearance from 370-410 with any tailwind. George is still flying but I have to watch it and make sure it 1. isn't going to overspeed the plane and 2. it doesn't silently kick from VNAV Path to VNAV Speed (or 'VNAV you're fucked' as I call it) I let the a/p do the work of getting the airplane trimmed up and the motors stabilized on the approach most of the time, unless it's a wide open visual off a downwind somewhere easy and quiet.
Arrivals into hub airports can get pretty busy and the arrival routes are predicated on all the airplanes flying very accurately. Sometimes ATC is playing traffic cop to fine tune everything, which can mean a lot of speed up or slow down, and the automation is generally better at handling that. If you have an emergency that requires to you hand fly the airplane (aka... "fly") while thinking (again, aka "fly") then you're going to have to do basically that, albeit simplified speed and altitude combinations instead of several crossing restrictions and assigned speeds of a typical published STAR (and you'll have emergency handling, which alleviates all that, but you still need to manage energy and configuration). Either way, practice is a good thing but arriving at a busy hub is neither the time nor the place.
For better or for worse, regional guys get more opportunity to practice hand flying the arrival phase of flight for a couple of reasons- about half of the destinations don't have any kind of published arrival procedures and very little traffic, almost always vectors or routing to an instrument approach, and regional schedules typically have more legs per day (more takeoffs and landings). If the terminal area weather is decent, and most of the time it is, then the instrument approach is just electronic backup to a visual approach.
A visual approach to a Class D or a nontowered airpot is not altogether different from the "VFR straight-in" from the Primary pilot FTI. In both cases you're something like 10-20 miles away, a few thousand or so feet above the airport, and pushing 250 knots. You have "power, attitude, trim," you have gear and flaps (and speedbrake), and you use your pilot brain to make it happen. Class C airports are usually like this too, but sometimes they can get crowded and busy too.
Not a case of one-upmanship or who's better or worse at stick and rudder skills (let's please not go there, that's just a dumb discussion), but flying small airplanes usually provide more opportunities to practice your pilot stuff. Opportunity is nothing if you don't take advantage of it.
For better or for worse, regional guys get more opportunity to practice hand flying the arrival phase of flight for a couple of reasons- about half of the destinations don't have any kind of published arrival procedures and very little traffic, almost always vectors or routing to an instrument approach, and regional schedules typically have more legs per day (more takeoffs and landings). If the terminal area weather is decent, and most of the time it is, then the instrument approach is just electronic backup to a visual approach.
A visual approach to a Class D or a nontowered airpot is not altogether different from the "VFR straight-in" from the Primary pilot FTI. In both cases you're something like 10-20 miles away, a few thousand or so feet above the airport, and pushing 250 knots. You have "power, attitude, trim," you have gear and flaps (and speedbrake), and you use your pilot brain to make it happen. Class C airports are usually like this too, but sometimes they can get crowded and busy too.
Not a case of one-upmanship or who's better or worse at stick and rudder skills (let's please not go there, that's just a dumb discussion), but flying small airplanes usually provide more opportunities to practice your pilot stuff. Opportunity is nothing if you don't take advantage of it.
How so? As long as ATC gives you a non-RVSM authorization it's perfectly legal to fly there with broken RVSM equipment (autopilot). I'm not 100% on this but I think you have to have the equipment operable, not necessarily use it.
I hate to say this, but that is because SWA doesn't understand VNAV. We didn't at Hawaiian until one of our check airmen went to a week long VNAV school put on by Boeing. I've watch SWA guys ignore the "add drag" (or whatever the cue is, been a while since my Boeing days) because SWA used to have a stupid rule of no speed brakes with any flaps. If you get out of the VNAV Path speed window (+/- 15 kts I think) it drops you to VNAV Speed from Path. They also manual set speeds which put you in VNAV speed. When flying VNAV, especially VNAV descents, all speed changes need to be made in the FMS until VNAV is in it's approach logic. I forgot how to tell when this happens but it is not until right before the FAP. Every time I jumpseat in a SWA cockpit I am amazed at the total lack of understanding of VNAV and it seems almost universal among SWA crews.
Like I said, we had the same problems and hatred of VNAV in the 767 at Hawaiian until our check airman went to Boeing, learned how it is supposed to be done, and then taught a special a day class/sim to all 767 pilots. After that it was great, easy and well liked.
A trick we used to do in the 767 (taught us by Boeing) was if we were doing a descent from altitude (VNAV or otherwise) with a tailwind was to tell the plane in the FMS that engine anti-ice is on. The logical then uses a higher idle thrust in it's calculations. Will probably still need to use speed brakes but to a much lessor extent.
To piggyback on what @Jim123 said above, many RNAV departures and arrivals are complex with multiple speed and altitude changes. couple this with the very strict RNP (required navigation performance) it is almost mandatory to use automated flight management procedures and autopilot. You could hand fly and use manual throttles but it is extremely likely you're going to have a deviation somewhere in the procedure. More likely with the RNP.
That's not my experience, it drops you from path to speed, not the other way around. The only time guys mess with speed intervene is if we are given a 'except maintain' and then only as long as it takes to get the VNAV clb/descent page reprogrammed, or if it's fallen out of path and you need to speed up to catch back up. There's just too much going on in most arrivals to screw around with any other mode. Speed brakes are authorized up to flaps 10.
Typo on my part. It drops you from Path to Speed. If they give you an "except maintain speed, change that speed in the FMS and it will do VNAV Path just fine. Don't touch the panel. Do all speed changes in the FMS. Set the current (I forget the page) and then set future on the Legs page. It does PATH really well then as long as you follow "add drag" cues. You can set the current speed in the FMS almost as fast as you can on the panel.
It's been about a year since I've been in a SWA cockpit but I was pretty regularly until then. I always cringed watching the crew doing VNAV, especially the Captains. FO seemed to know it better but the Captains always wanted to ignore "add drag" and roll in a vertical speed or a higher airspeed instead. That or kick off the autothrottles and pull it to idle for all descents. They also had a tendency to set all the speeds manually on the panel and then wonder why it wouldn't do Path. One dropped the gear 25 miles out of San Diego instead of using speed brakes. "I know the company says we can use speed rakes with flaps now but I think it weakens the flaps and I won't do it." to the FO when he questioned him. Same guy refused to use the autothrottle for the descent. He was the cliché of the old Captain who refuses to modernize or change his ways. Old school -200 pilots who doesn't understand all the information on his non-dial screens or how to use the automation.
I'm probably painting with too wide a brush but it was the same things I saw at Hawaiian when we started doing VNAV on the 767 and until I was taught by that one check airman, I was doing the same.
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Look, I wasn't saying we are ready today to go full autonomous. So your observation that airline automation isn't 100% reliable today is not germane. My final thought was that WHEN we get fully autonomous cars worked out, THEN unmanned airliners will be easy.
I retired off the 737-800. The automation, FMS/Autopilot was incredibly reliable. Almost bullet proof. I never saw a broken FMS, for those that don't know, the real central brain for full vertical and lateral auto flight. Never saw a true failure in flight. Can't even remember writing one up. Saw maybe two single channel broken autopilots in 6 years on the 737.
Sure, I had to intervene on occasion. But it was because ATC (people) wanted something the machine could not do, or I programmed it wrong or had it in the wrong mode. Anyone that doesn't cop to the fact the "what is it doing now" was, 90% of the time, preceded by a pilot error, asking it to do something it can't, or lack of adequate knowledge of the system is lying. Even flying into barber pole would not happen if the plane was in the correct mode and allowed to fly the profile IT wanted, not what we were trying to make it do. People, whether ATC or pilots, by way of sequencing planes or pilots wanting weather deviations are why the automation gets clicked off. Remove ATC requests so they can cram 6 airplanes in a space where 4 was planned and even the current automation would work fine. And it would not take much more technology to get the plane to fly around weather on its own. Ironically, it won't be automation that permits the removal of people from the cockpit, it is the removal of people from the loop that ultimately will lead to the full realization of autonomous flight. Only people generate the "garbage" of garbage in garbage out.
So, will the airlines remain a good gig? You bet! Airline pilots get paid, roughly, for their productivity and relative responsibility. Fly bigger planes you are responsible for more people or boxes and generate more revenue for the company. Backhoe operators get paid more than guys with shovels. A guy remotely monitoring 2-3 autonomous airline flights with 600 pax and/or freight should make bank. But the cadre that monitors and takes responsibility for the flights will be more like today's NFO. Airline jobs for all my double anchor friends ? .
Correct.. Until you’re post after the one I quoted, I assumed RVSM airspace. I was saying it is illegal to fly in RVSM airspace without the autopilot.
What brand?
Dunkin’?
As it were, that’s all I have with me on deployment right now!
Do y’all have speed intervention?
All Boeing’s with VNAV do. Speed intervention is what kicks it out of Path.
Currently have a standing bet with my previous OPSO over automation. We’ve agreed to meet up in ten years back in Sig (bet made in Lava Lounge) and if we can get there fully automated and no human in the cockpit (commercial) I’m buying the bottle of scotch and if humans are still required to fly humans, he’s buying the bottle of bourbon...
I like my chances in 2030...
I like my chances in 2030...