The SHOW: Airlines still a "good gig"??

[Faded Float Coat]

Perhaps there is more information to the story. Perp carrying material germane to his case on him or communication that he was a flight risk (he's debarking into an airport). Maybe intelligence stated this guy has the potential to use deadly force against LE. All things that are witheld from the public. I would probably lend a little professional discretion to these guys vice the run of the mill LE team doing a routine enforcement action... or at least acknowledge that social media only covers a minority of LE actions and they're typically designed to get "likes" or "clicks." It is also some what hypocritical in our profession to assert excessive force - We schwack dudes from altitude at times with little background information and have to trust intelligence before you hit the master arm button. These guys might have been in a similar situation.

Hard agree with just about everything here. My tangential point was more of an aside add-on to @Swanee's point.

 

[taxi1]

Perhaps there is more information to the story.

There has to be.

I'm expecting this could evolve into a bit of a shitstorm as people keep asking why was he even in the cockpit in the first place. Did they know they were going to arrest him in SFO when he boarded the plane in MSP?

 

[SynixMan]

I do not pretend to know the details of allegations or charges, so I'm leaving the door wide open to myriad possibilities, but in general I think the bolded part of your post is really worth considering on both local and national levels. President Obama took measures to limit the amount and type of military equipment made available to local police forces; however, that effort was undone by the subsequent administration...such is life when governance is done through executive action and not through the legislative process - something worth keeping in mind by those who are champions of current executive orders.

Again, if the rumored allegations against this individual are true, there's not a lot of grace I can muster for him, and at the same time we can all acknowledge this version of DHS is all about production value, too often over common sense. Two things can be true.

This was my first thought as well. It's sad DHS is barely believable in their current incarnation.

 

[Mos]

Perhaps this guy is Clarence Oveur and was about to molest Joey in the cockpit.

 

[Griz882]

I also wonder if the term “storm” might be a bit of a journalistic “turn of phrase.” I don know the specifics, but I doubt they dashed through the open cabin door yelling and screaming “Police! Get in the ground!”

 

[Hotdogs]

We're also not conducting wartime operations against American citizens. That is a critical distinction.
There are times when the cops need to gear up. I can't see a case in which this is one. Flight risk? He can only run so far, and he can't out-run a radio. Harm to others? With what? He's not carrying.


Also, why is DHS conducting this and not the FBI? Kiddy porn investigations don't seem to fit inside the DHS's scope of operations. That seems more like a DOJ job.
And if they think he's going to do some type of 9/11 attack, why not stop him before he took off?

This screams security theater to me.

There has to be.

I'm expecting this could evolve into a bit of a shitstorm as people keep asking why was he even in the cockpit in the first place. Did they know they were going to arrest him in SFO when he boarded the plane in MSP?

If I had to apply some logical conclusion, DHS might have gotten involved because airplanes and airports fall into their jurisdiction (It's an airport). No, the FBI doesn't have carte blanc access to U.S. territories and facilities and inter-agency cooperation is normal. I would never make the assumptions about cardio nor carrying a weapon when it comes to a suspect that might have a reason to crash out and go full stupid on LE and everyone around him. Again, more information we're not privy to viewing.

The time critical decision making process is analogous to what we face in the military. Probably not on the same scale, but also more complex due to the reasons (legal due process) you highlighted. Do you know if any of those DHS employees had special skillsets needed for evidence collection or processing? Do you know when the warrant was issued? Inflight perhaps? Before take off? We have no idea.

I get the "LE inferiority complex" angle you're going for... but we probably should have more facts before tipping in on LE with a bunch of assumptions. When Armed UAS kill the wrong dude or maim a bunch of civilians, the first thing I don't scream is " War criminal!" perhaps you should take a step back and think it through a bit. Especially if you haven't been a part of LE actions or served as a federal agent in some capacity. I'm sure any malfeasant activities by LE will be flushed out by defense attorneys in court.

 

[sevenhelmet]

I also wonder if the term “storm” might be a bit of a journalistic “turn of phrase.” I don know the specifics, but I doubt they dashed through the open cabin door yelling and screaming “Police! Get in the ground!”

I’m willing to bet the decision was made during the flight, and they wanted to minimize the time boyo had to check his phone and potentially be tipped off to what was coming. If they had to “storm the cockpit”, it was likely to deter passengers from blocking their entry/egress route by doing normal passenger things (e.g. mooo, moooo!)

Recent story: about a month ago, I was on an airliner (767) from IAH-LHR. Captain made a PA on taxi in, and asked everyone to remain seated for an “announcement from customs”. FAs repeated the message and the seatbelt sign stayed on as the engines spooled down to silence. Police arrested the guy in 1A when we got to the gate (I was in 7A- perks of business travel). They searched the forward lavatories and his seat area for a few minutes, and then let us go.

They were pretty quiet about it, and the people not in business class were clearly confused and had no idea what had happened.

 

[Griz882]

If they had to “storm the cockpit”, it was likely to deter passengers from blocking their entry/egress route by doing normal passenger things (e.g. mooo, moooo!)

Hell yeah! If I had been in a aisle seat with a number 3 or under I would have been unbuckled and bum-rushing every law dog to get out the jet bridge!

 

[Swanee]

If I had to apply some logical conclusion, DHS might have gotten involved because airplanes and airports fall into their jurisdiction (It's an airport). No, the FBI doesn't have carte blanc access to U.S. territories and facilities and inter-agency cooperation is normal. I would never make the assumptions about cardio nor carrying a weapon when it comes to a suspect that might have a reason to crash out and go full stupid on LE and everyone around him. Again, more information we're not privy to viewing.

The time critical decision making process is analogous to what we face in the military. Probably not on the same scale, but also more complex due to the reasons (legal due process) you highlighted. Do you know if any of those DHS employees had special skillsets needed for evidence collection or processing? Do you know when the warrant was issued? Inflight perhaps? Before take off? We have no idea.

I get the "LE inferiority complex" angle you're going for... but we probably should have more facts before tipping in on LE with a bunch of assumptions. When Armed UAS kill the wrong dude or maim a bunch of civilians, the first thing I don't scream is " War criminal!" perhaps you should take a step back and think it through a bit. Especially if you haven't been a part of LE actions or served as a federal agent in some capacity. I'm sure any malfeasant activities by LE will be flushed out by defense attorneys in court.

I'm not sure where your getting that because that's not what I'm saying at all dude. Also, warzone military actions vs civilian police action against American citizens. That's an important distinction you're ignoring.


Nor am I saying that my community (or yours, as mine has significantly more oversight when we kill people vs what your UH-1 LCPL AO shooting at people does) hasn't fucked up shots in the past. We killed a lot of people who we shouldn't have because we didn't understand that people worked in their fields at night when it was hot outside.

But stop with the "LE gearing up like it's Falujah and storming a cockpit" as being completely normal and justified and that it shouldn't be questioned. I will always question why LE has to gear up like an infantry Marine. They're not facing what an Infantry Marine has to face.

 

[GroundPounder]

But stop with the "LE gearing up like it's Falujah and storming a cockpit" as being completely normal and justified and that it shouldn't be questioned. I will always question why LE has to gear up like an infantry Marine. They're not facing what an Infantry Marine has to face.

Those guys on the 33rd floor about an hour ago, what would you be ok with them wearing?

 

[Swanee]

Those guys on the 33rd floor about an hour ago, what would you be ok with them wearing?

How does the 33rd floor of the NFL building resemble Falujah?

Also, the guy shot himself. So the responding force could have been naked.

 

[GroundPounder]

How does the 33rd floor of the NFL building resemble Falujah?

Also, the guy shot himself. So the responding force could have been naked.

Well, he did kill one of the responders, so that officer will end up naked on the autopsy table tonight.

And before he shot himself, he had a rifle. A rifle that will penetrate a regular vest. Within the last few months, two members of an agency adjacent to mine were met by a suspect with an automatic weapon, 1 dead, and one that lived. I wish they would have had more protection than they went in with.

I may be proven wrong, but I would be willing to bet the shooter killed himself as the officers moved to contact. That's why we move in immediately. Not doing so only results in more deaths. A perfect example is Uvalde. They didn't, and more deaths were the results.

I don't wear raid vests often, but when there is a need, I wonder why you'd rather I didn't.

 

[Bad_Karma_1310]

I don't wear raid vests often, but when there is a need, I wonder why you'd rather I didn't.

But maybe there is a conversation to be had about if law enforcement is wearing them too much and how that among other militarization impacts interactions with the public?

 

[GroundPounder]

But maybe there is a conversation to be had about if law enforcement is wearing them too much and how that among other militarization impacts interactions with the public?

I'd agree with that, there is a time and place for everything.

Ultimately we work for the public, and you set the rules.

 

[Faded Float Coat]

But maybe there is a conversation to be had about if law enforcement is wearing them too much and how that among other militarization impacts interactions with the public?

C'mon man, there's no room for nuance around here.....