Well the S-3 did!
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The Tomcat Legacy; 35+ years from Fleet Air Defender to Recce to Precision Strike
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phrogpilot73
Well-Known Member
I can't help but notice it says "Legendary Aircraft of the US Navy". Yet, not a single piston powered aircraft among them... Hmmm...Well, back in 98 the Marshall Islands celebrated some of the Navy's best, with this stamp series. Guess the F14 didn't make the cut back then.... notice the mighty warpig looking good as the first stamp....
navyao
Registered User
Friendly Fire, F-14A v. RF-4
A friend forwarded an email to me this morning regarding a VF-74 F-14A 'bagging' a USAF RF-4 over the Med in September 1987. Due to copyright legalities I decided not to cut-n-paste.
The RF-4's mission was to find Saratoga and attempt to fly over her and get pictures without being detected.
The Phantom crew joins up on a tanker and notices the F-14 on his wing waiting its turn, (which didn't make sense since we don't accept fuel the same way as Air Force a/c do)...Anyway the F-4 tanks and departs the tanker. The Phantom crew notices the Tomcat following them for a period of time and then break off.
The F-4's AN/ALQ-125 broke so they apparently knew the TACAN freq. on Sara. So using that freq. and back tracking where they lost the F-14 they begin a search for Sara when all of a sudden a massive explosion engulfs the jet. The entire eppenage is on fire and both pilot and wso egress from the Phantom. The crew is picked up in the med by a Navy helo.
Later, Sara's Skipper debriefs the Phantom crew and asks if they know what happened? The Phantom crew believed they were involved in a midair with the Tomcat. The Skipper informs them they were actually shot down by the Tomcat.
Allegedly, the JO piloting the Tomcat, who is assigned to the exercise is for some reason flying live ordnance. How he is unaware he's flying with AIM-9's and not a CATM-9 I don't get. You guys always seemed to know what you were flying with...Anyway, the first missle is a hung store and doesn't fire. The second comes off the LAU-7 without a problem hitting the Phantom.
Now what I don't get is the Tomcat pilot had VID'd the Phantom. On the HUD the author mentions how the TCS records the ZR tailcode and that he's within 2500 feet of the Phantom. How do you not know your shooting a friendly?
So, any truth to this? This is before my time and not something I would've been on the 'need to know' list for. Shnug or HJ? Maybe you guys have seen or heard this?
A friend forwarded an email to me this morning regarding a VF-74 F-14A 'bagging' a USAF RF-4 over the Med in September 1987. Due to copyright legalities I decided not to cut-n-paste.
The RF-4's mission was to find Saratoga and attempt to fly over her and get pictures without being detected.
The Phantom crew joins up on a tanker and notices the F-14 on his wing waiting its turn, (which didn't make sense since we don't accept fuel the same way as Air Force a/c do)...Anyway the F-4 tanks and departs the tanker. The Phantom crew notices the Tomcat following them for a period of time and then break off.
The F-4's AN/ALQ-125 broke so they apparently knew the TACAN freq. on Sara. So using that freq. and back tracking where they lost the F-14 they begin a search for Sara when all of a sudden a massive explosion engulfs the jet. The entire eppenage is on fire and both pilot and wso egress from the Phantom. The crew is picked up in the med by a Navy helo.
Later, Sara's Skipper debriefs the Phantom crew and asks if they know what happened? The Phantom crew believed they were involved in a midair with the Tomcat. The Skipper informs them they were actually shot down by the Tomcat.
Allegedly, the JO piloting the Tomcat, who is assigned to the exercise is for some reason flying live ordnance. How he is unaware he's flying with AIM-9's and not a CATM-9 I don't get. You guys always seemed to know what you were flying with...Anyway, the first missle is a hung store and doesn't fire. The second comes off the LAU-7 without a problem hitting the Phantom.
Now what I don't get is the Tomcat pilot had VID'd the Phantom. On the HUD the author mentions how the TCS records the ZR tailcode and that he's within 2500 feet of the Phantom. How do you not know your shooting a friendly?
So, any truth to this? This is before my time and not something I would've been on the 'need to know' list for. Shnug or HJ? Maybe you guys have seen or heard this?
B
Blutonski816
Guest
From the F-14 Forum:
A "kill" on a US force is not a "kill". It's called fratricide. Just because the two guys in the Phantom did not die, that does not suddenly make it an okay thing to have happened.
In the USAF when that happens in training with fake missiles, it is a hammer-the-dude's-nuts-with-a-wooden-mallet event. It always results in a fine of a keg paid to the squadron bar. It is NOT an event in which you shrug your shoulders and go "eh, well, it's just a kill anyway".
The guy who wrote that should be keel-hauled.
A "kill" on a US force is not a "kill". It's called fratricide. Just because the two guys in the Phantom did not die, that does not suddenly make it an okay thing to have happened.
In the USAF when that happens in training with fake missiles, it is a hammer-the-dude's-nuts-with-a-wooden-mallet event. It always results in a fine of a keg paid to the squadron bar. It is NOT an event in which you shrug your shoulders and go "eh, well, it's just a kill anyway".
My dad was a WSO in RF-4's from Zweibruecken back in the early 80s.
Same for the USN side. Last time I was shot by my wingman, it cost him $100 at the bar that night.
Although Hacker, from what I read my perceptoin is that you're quotting the wannabe's from that forum that have probably never sat in the front seat of a grey jet. -1 for headwork!
Although Hacker, from what I read my perceptoin is that you're quotting the wannabe's from that forum that have probably never sat in the front seat of a grey jet. -1 for headwork!
Shoot, even at VT-86 in T-39's with NO FRIGGIN ORDNANCE, NOT EVEN A CATM, pulling the trigger against a "friendly" meant money out of your pocket. They made a big deal out of it in the debrief. Granted, the implications were not as great as if you did what the Tomcat guys did, but you train how you fight.
Bingo. I dropped an LGTR one night at Airwing Fallon without a cleared hot, after the tit-hammering I've been terrified of doing it again ever since.
Doing that in theater is a quick way to being the only guy at a long white table without a glass of water.
It's a true story. They were doing a live carry and the pilot was was nugget. As part of the exercise, they were told to shoot. Pilot took it litterally although the RIO was screaming at him not to do it - it was to be simulated. Pilot insisted they would never tell him to shoot unless they meant it, so he shot. RIO was smart enough to put everything over the radio on hot mic so he survived the subsequent hanging.
I can't tell you how many times I touched that "Master Arm" switch in country, double checking the position... knowing full well I was safed up.
Common sense doesn't always prevail I guess.
Odd, from Fence In to Fence Out, I ran around "Armstrong" in country. Something about being able to arm/fire the laser and not being retarded enough to have a weapon selected or a target contributor populated. Never was a problem and didn't hear of anyone having anything inadvertently falling off the jet.
/dropped without a cleared hot once
//flying with Harrier Dude on a SOTACC CAS frag
///paid up my keg
////those who have and those who will
Storyis apparently morphing over time. Tomcat intercepted the tanker and RF-4 and was escorting them during an exercise with Weapons Hold declared as part of same. When RF-4 finished tanking, Tomcat was told to tail the RF-4.
We all flew with live ordnance until FIREBREAK restrictions in early 90s. He knew he had live ordnance.
While following RF-4, exercise went "Red and Free". In classic CRM misommunication, incredulous pilot asked his experienced 0-4 RIO if he supposed to shoot (as supposedly trained to do in RAG during simulated Outer Air Battle). Not realizing what pilot really intended to do if told yes, the RIO told him to go ahead and shoot thinking the pilot would call an sumulated FOX 2. If RIO was watching his TID, he would have noticed that the pilot armed the aircraft and selected SW. The first attempt failed and pilot dutifully stepped to next Heater and RIO became aware when he heard the loud whoosh and saw smoke trail as Sidewinder worked as advertised.
Poor choice of words, but consider the source as others have noted
Nor was it OK when an Air Force exchange pilot in same squadron just before transition to Tomcats bagged his flight lead with a Sidewinder. Pilot was a RAG instructor when the second fratricide incident pilot went through. Tomcat pilot misinterpreted the call from E-2C and sought assistance from his RIO. Classic miscommunication. Air Force pilot learned the business never training with live weapons and always had pulled the hammer in training (train like you fight muscle memory). He forgot that he was carrying a live Heater and warned his wingman when he saw it come off.
Note: Air Force has commited this act with literal Blue on Blue off Alaska at least once so nobody's immune. Navy ceased practice of always carrying live during training after FIREBREAK was instituted in 1993. That was CNO directed after the RF-4 incident, Saratoga SeaSparrow into bridge of Turkish destroyer during exercise (similar miscues as airborne incident) and Vincennes downing airliner. Problem with all three incidents is individuals thought they were supposed to fire and did.
I've talked to experts in human behavior at NPS who say this is a human behavior phenomena. You "see" want you want to see or, in some cases, are afraid to see. Reverse was USS Stark that calmly watched Iraqi Mirage F1 heading in their direction (pre Gulf Wars) thinking it would only engage an Iranian ship. They failed to realize they were the target and did nothing to react to threat and soaked up 2 Exocets. Bad assumption on their part relative to SA of Iraqi pilot who likely didn't like being out over water at night and looking for first blip he saw (at the time, Iraqis were more or less "aligned" to US and did not intend malice to anyone but Iranian ships). They relaxed when they saw him turn away not realizing they were witnessing a classic Exocet launch profile they had observed almost nightly. So the bystander became the victim.