TRSA question

[Gatordev]

Okay, here's what I found today...

Don't have an answer for the helo guys, but I'm guessing it's in an FTI somewhere. For the T-34 guys, it's in the VNAV FTI, pg 3-3, and it states that Stage III service is mandatory for all CNATRA aircraft.

I'm sure there's some higher level of instruction somewhere that brings this about.

 

[Flying Low]

I will take a look in the Helo FTI's.

 

[HH-60H]

Anyone have access to any old copies of 3710? I tried to look them up on the internets, but no joy.

 

[ChunksJR]

I'm sure there's some higher level of instruction somewhere that brings this about.

I believe this is what we use at the Helo level:

5.1.5 Special Use Airspace. ​

When operating within Special Use Airspace (SUA), ATC Assigned Airspace (ATCAA), or altitude reservations (ALTRVs), flights shall be conducted under the prescribed operational area procedures appropriate to the airspace area and mission/operation.​

Despite operations in the TRSA not falling "officially" under SUA (Special Use Airspace) the term SHALL implies that the area be used since training is done with respect to IFR operations. And that's in accordance with the following (toward the bottom: "the airspace...") of which a TRSA (as definied in the AIM) IS an "other airspace":​

5.3.1.1 IFR Filing and Positive Control. ​

To decrease the probability of midair collisions, all flights
in naval aircraft shall be conducted in accordance with IFR to the maximum extent practicable. This shall include all point-to-point and round-robin flights using Federal airways and other flights or portions thereof, such as flights to and from target or operating areas accessible through IFR filing. All other flights shall be conducted under positive control to the maximum extent possible. This shall apply in the following areas:​

a. In the airspace over the United States and adjacent coastal waters within the 12-mile limit.​

Along with the note after that:​

Note:​

Commanding officers shall ensure compliance with the intent and spirit of this
requirement and shall scrutinize all flight operations as to mission and purpose to
assure they are conducted in accordance with IFR or positive control to the
maximum extent practicable without mission degradation.​

Read: COs, CYA.​

Now, I've flown plenty of VFR Nav Flights (spirit of the mission = don't go IFR) under airspaces without talking to anyone (the only way to get a helo through downtown Atlanta) but, the surface area (center ring) of the TRSA usually coincides with the Class D airspace around many of the airports I've been to: Biloxi/GPT, Montgomery, etc.​

But, I'm just a CAT I (fam) instructor...I've been out of the game a bit...​

 

[HH-60H]

I don't follow your connections.

Following what I think you are saying.... If someone was flying a VNAV, a flight that cannot be done under positive control or IFR, according to what you posted it would be ok to not treat the TRSA as class C.

 

[ChunksJR]

I don't follow your connections.

Following what I think you are saying.... If someone was flying a VNAV, a flight that cannot be done under positive control or IFR, according to what you posted it would be ok to not treat the TRSA as class C.

A VNAV can be done under positive control---But VFR, in accordance with the MPTS--Meaning that it can deviate from 3710's IFR flight to the "Max Extent Practicable." (mission requires VFR). And doing that is only going to minimize the services/separation provided by ATC (workload permitting under VFR flight following (positive control)).

In this case, you would still treat the TRSA like a Class C, but remain under it's outer rings (VNAVS done at usually 1000' AGL max (usually below the outer rings of the TRSA).) This is until you penetrated the surface TRSA (innermost ring), which usually coincides with the Class D airspace around the airport that provides the TRSA. At this point in time, you'd be told to squawk a discrete code--which means you'd be "participating" in the TRSA in the spirit of the above quotes from 3710T. Assuming they used your callsign when they gave you the squawk, there would be no need to be under "radar contact."

So, I agree and disagree all the same. It is, for all intensive purposes, a Class C with one major difference...A controller of a TRSA should never tell you to "remain clear until radar identified," which is something you'll usually hear in a Class C (hence the "Contact Approach 20NM out on 123.45" boxes all over the VFR sectionals.) Despite the squawk, the only requirement is 2-way radio comms in or out of the Class D airspace (usually overlapping the surface TRSA area...).

Now, if he says "aircraft/callsign, remain clear of CLASS D airspace..." than that's a whole 'nother question, but has nothing to do with the TRSA (of which we military types are required to participate IAW above clips from 3710T), it has to do with the TOWER controlling the airport. And therein lies the major difference.

Clear as mud?

 

[HH-60H]

I think I understand what you are saying. I guess VNAV was a bad example. What kind of flight requires the use of pilotage?

 

[ChunksJR]

I think I understand what you are saying. I guess VNAV was a bad example. What kind of flight requires the use of pilotage?

For us helo bubbas - they are the VNAVs. Pick checkpoints (usually highways, bridges, lakes etc off the sectional), dead-reckon from point to point at max altitude 1000' AGL. Funneling/limiting features, Leg times/route times, etc to assure you're on track.

I usually do this through downtown Atlanta, UNDER the Class B shelves so that I don't have to talk to anyone and can keep 1200 on the parrot...much like I go under the Class C and TRSA shelves.

 

[squorch2]

It is, for all intents and purposes

fixed that for you.

 

[HH-60H]

For us helo bubbas - they are the VNAVs. Pick checkpoints (usually highways, bridges, lakes etc off the sectional), dead-reckon from point to point at max altitude 1000' AGL. Funneling/limiting features, Leg times/route times, etc to assure you're on track.

How can you do this under positive control?

 

[HH-60H]

It is, for all intents and purposes

fixed that for you.

It's fringe benefits, not french benefits.

 

[ChunksJR]

How can you do this under positive control?

Flight following. Although normally, we don't use it.

 

[HH-60H]

Flight following. Although normally, we don't use it.

I don't think flight following is positive control. During flight following the controller issues traffic and other safety advisories, but usually cannot assign radar vectors.

 

[ChunksJR]

^^^True...True. I was sleep deprived. Positive control =\= radar contact...the latter of which would allow for "flight following" (of course as traffic permits...)

~D

 

[Gatordev]

^^^True...True. I was sleep deprived. Positive control =\= radar contact...the latter of which would allow for "flight following" (of course as traffic permits...)

~D

Which is what leads me to believe that your well-thought out idea for why the HTs have to abide by the CNATRA rule (via 3710) is interesting, but a stretch. I have a feeling there's a much simpler answer and it involves an overall instruction, I just haven't found it yet. I'm thinking a trip over to the old guys at academics is in order, since they should have the reference for why our FTI says what it says. Consider that on my To Do list. Also consider "taking picture for service record" on my To Do list, as well, so you canl see how productive I am...