US-Libya Restore Ties

[sevenhelmet]

... They have been accused of sponsoring a wide variety of terrorist groups but the state of Libya has never taken action against anyone (including their own terrorists).

@ Husker: Agreed. When your enemy is terrorism, inaction/indifference is hardly a condonable act.

@ Fly: I don't trust the Saudis or Pakistanis either.

Perhaps Sun Tzu said it best... "keep your friends close and your enemies closer."

 

[TurnandBurn55]

Other than the abundance of sweet crude in Libya, what possibly does Libya bring to the table for us? I do think that this makes a good example for the rest of the world but what else?

We're not exactly asking them to sign the North Atlantic Treaty... we're just restoring normal trade relations with them. Does there have to be a 'reason' we trade with them normally? Or should we keep economic sanctions on every country in the world until they agree to give us some specific gain in return?

 

[Flash]

What big pictures? Other than the abundance of sweet crude in Libya, what possibly does Libya bring to the table for us? I do think that this makes a good example for the rest of the world but what else?

They won't provide troops on the ground, they don't provide any physical assistance in the War on Terror. Most people are still certain that state sponsored terrorism occurs in Libya. It isn't a government I trust. Qadhafi might not be the problem, there are still people in that government that think America is like Nazi Germany. Heck, even Qadhafi said it. We can only hope there is something under the table that we are not privy to.

Seven, I can easily qualify that statement... in the last 30 years, Libya has never been officially tied to any terrorist action. They have been accused of sponsoring a wide variety of terrorist groups but the state of Libya has never taken action against anyone (including their own terrorists).

Really!!??

"Abdelbaset Ali Mohmed Al Megrahi, a Libyan intelligence officer and the head of security for Libyan Arab Airlines (LAA)......On January 31, 2001, Megrahi was convicted of murder by a panel of three Scottish judges, and sentenced to 27 years in prison." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pan_Am_Flight_103

"Libya was blamed for the bombing after telex messages had been intercepted from Libya's East Berlin embassy.....In 2001, a Libyan diplomat, Musbah Abdulghasem Eter, and two Palestinians, Yasser Mohammed Chreidi (or Yassar Al-Shuraidi or Yassir Chraidi) and Ali Chanaa were convicted in Berlin's Superior Court of aiding in murder, and Chanaa's former German wife, Mrs Verena Channa, was convicted of murder. They were given sentences of 12 to 14 years in prison."http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/La_Belle_discotheque

Please get your facts straight before you go spouting off stuff like that.

There is a lot more to the story than Libya giving up terrorism and aiding the US in GWOT, they are destroying their chemical weapons stockpile http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/africa/12/23/gadhafi.interview/index.html but most importantly they also gave up their clandestine nuclear weapons progam http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/01/26/world/main595939.shtml and in the process handed over all of the material and info they had acquired in their pursuit of nukes, giving us valuable insight into the world of nuclear technology smuggling and many of the characters involved in that illicit trade. We found out awful lot about the Pakistani scientist Dr. A.Q. Khan and his network from the Libyans http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AQ_Khan .

All of this information is very easily accesible on the internet, (while Wikipedia is not always 100% accurate in this case all of the information I cited is accurate), please take a little time to do some reasearch next time before you go off into left field.....Google, it is a wonderful thing......

 

[sevenhelmet]

Thanks Flash, I wasn't aware of most of that.

 

[TXHusker05]

Really!!??

"Abdelbaset Ali Mohmed Al Megrahi, a Libyan intelligence officer and the head of security for Libyan Arab Airlines (LAA)......On January 31, 2001, Megrahi was convicted of murder by a panel of three Scottish judges, and sentenced to 27 years in prison." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pan_Am_Flight_103

"Libya was blamed for the bombing after telex messages had been intercepted from Libya's East Berlin embassy.....In 2001, a Libyan diplomat, Musbah Abdulghasem Eter, and two Palestinians, Yasser Mohammed Chreidi (or Yassar Al-Shuraidi or Yassir Chraidi) and Ali Chanaa were convicted in Berlin's Superior Court of aiding in murder, and Chanaa's former German wife, Mrs Verena Channa, was convicted of murder. They were given sentences of 12 to 14 years in prison."http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/La_Belle_discotheque

Please get your facts straight before you go spouting off stuff like that.

There is a lot more to the story than Libya giving up terrorism and aiding the US in GWOT, they are destroying their chemical weapons stockpile http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/africa/12/23/gadhafi.interview/index.html but most importantly they also gave up their clandestine nuclear weapons progam http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/01/26/world/main595939.shtml and in the process handed over all of the material and info they had acquired in their pursuit of nukes, giving us valuable insight into the world of nuclear technology smuggling and many of the characters involved in that illicit trade. We found out awful lot about the Pakistani scientist Dr. A.Q. Khan and his network from the Libyans http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AQ_Khan .

All of this information is very easily accesible on the internet, (while Wikipedia is not always 100% accurate in this case all of the information I cited is accurate), please take a little time to do some reasearch next time before you go off into left field.....Google, it is a wonderful thing......

Or you could over react to my statement. In both of these cases, these men were acting on their own. I was referring to terrorist or military actions by the state, not by individuals. Heck, you even proved my point right by citing the example of a Libyan diplomat working with Palestinian terrorists. The act of terrorism was not done by the Libyans in either case. All you are doing is arguing my point from a different perspective. Libya AS A STATE has never taken terrorist actions against anyone. It has always been Libyans supporting some other terrorists.

 

[Brett327]

What big pictures?

This is precisely why you are a student of political science and not a policy-maker. I realize people have a natural apprehension towards blind faith in their leaders, but let's face it - the guy making the calls has infinitely more information than we do - as it should be. This will apply to you should you ever make it to your first fleet command. There is ALWAYS a bigger picture - one that you may not be privy to. The enterprising JO tries to figure out what it is so as to gain perspective on why we do the things we do, as well as to better position yourself to gain professionally. The sooner you learn this, the better officer you stand to become.

Brett

 

[HueyCobra8151]

Heck, you even proved my point right by citing the example of a Libyan diplomat working with Palestinian terrorists. The act of terrorism was not done by the Libyans in either case.

A) Diplomats are representatives of their respective countries.
B) Saying that he didn't physically "pull the trigger" (as it were) seems intentionally devisive...he was obviously complicit.

Here is the article you apparently didn't read (that was posted by the person you are debating against):

The judge said it was not clear whether Gaddafi or Libyan intelligence had actually ordered the attack, though there were indications they had. Two weeks before the La Belle discotheque blast, Gaddafi called for Arab assaults on American interests worldwide...

Chreidi was eventually extradited from Libya to Germany in connection with the bombing. He had been working for the Libyan Peoples' Bureau in East Berlin at the time of the bombing. Chreidi was said to have connections with Palestinian terrorist Abu Nidal, who used to live in Tripoli and was financed by Libya in the 1980s. Eter was reported to be the Libyan spy agency's point man at the embassy in what was then Communist East Berlin.

 

[phrogdriver]

No state sponsor of terror is ever DIRECTLY linked to the terrorist acts they sponsor. They are always insulated by a series of cut-outs and go-betweens. If they were not, they'd be going right past sponsoring terror and committing overt acts of war. For example, Iran is well-established to be a supporter of Hezbollah, but they don't have representatives of their military or intelligence services actively participating in terrorist attacks.

As much as we in the military enjoy the "stick" side of diplomacy, the "carrot" has to be employed from time to time as well. Since they'd been under economic sanctions for 20 years, the only stick left to use against Libya would be military action. With our ongoing conflicts elsewhere, that probably wasn't the best plan. Why not use a carrot to get them to dump their WMD programs? Realize that the benefit doesn't stop there. The intel we probably gained about how they got their WMD technical knowledge and components were just as valuable.

 

[TXHusker05]

This is precisely why you are a student of political science and not a policy-maker. I realize people have a natural apprehension towards blind faith in their leaders, but let's face it - the guy making the calls has infinitely more information than we do - as it should be. This will apply to you should you ever make it to your first fleet command. There is ALWAYS a bigger picture - one that you may not be privy to. The enterprising JO tries to figure out what it is so as to gain perspective on why we do the things we do, as well as to better position yourself to gain professionally. The sooner you learn this, the better officer you stand to become.

Brett

I accept the blind faith here which is why I said that there must be something that we are not privy to behind this decision. But I am a student of political science AND middle east/northern Africa studies, I know the region very well so there are some things that just don't add up from what I have been taught and have learned through the experience of being in that area of the world. It is a different way of thinking there. There is no such thing as the common good, it is what is good for me... everywhere. Libya, Iraq, Egypt, Israel, Lebanon, etc. It doesn't matter, nobody in the area gives a damn about what their neighbor thinks which is why I am weary to trust anyone in that area.

Sometimes blind faith is the wrong way to run....... BUT for the sake of the career, I guess it comes with the job Sometimes I wonder if I have the political patience to make it to a politically influenced rank.

 

[Brett327]

But I am a student of political science AND middle east/northern Africa studies, I know the region very well

That's what you think - ahh youthful exuberance. A bachelors degree (unfinished at that) plus a bit of world travel doesn't qualify you as someone who "knows the region well." Why don't you take all those superior knowledges to the DI at CIA and see how fast they turn you down for an analyst position. The only thing you're qualified to do in your field is to apply for more schooling. Sorry to have to burst your bubble, but I gots to keep it real around here.

Brett

 

[Slammer2]

i think that all college does is help you read the 97 books that you have to buy

 

[Fly Navy]

That's what you think - ahh youthful exuberance. A bachelors degree (unfinished at that) plus a bit of world travel doesn't qualify you as someone who "knows the region well." Why don't you take all those superior knowledges to the DI at CIA and see how fast they turn you down for an analyst position. The only thing you're qualified to do in your field is to apply for more schooling. Sorry to have to burst your bubble, but I gots to keep it real around here.

Brett

Yep, gotta back this up as well. A Bachelors, let alone an unfinished one, hardly makes you an expert in anything.

 

[Fly Navy]

And while we're restoring trade and relations with Libya (which I support)...

I have a plan for Cuba and Iran. Drop ALL sanctions. Commence trade immediately. Infuse them with MTV, McDonalds, and The Gap. In 10 years they (the moron regimes) will crumble. I'm telling you, it'll work.

 

[squorch2]

As a career self-preservationist, Qaddafi hates Islamic extremists as much or more than we do. Moreover, letting Libya benefit from our trade proves to the world that the principles of non-proliferation and anti-terrorism mean more to the US than past indiscretions.

I eagerly await your treatise on the imminent normalization of relations with Cuba.

 

[Fly Navy]

I eagerly await your treatise on the imminent normalization of relations with Cuba.

See my previous post