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TXHusker05 said:I accept the blind faith here which is why I said that there must be something that we are not privy to behind this decision. But I am a student of political science AND middle east/northern Africa studies, I know the region very well so there are some things that just don't add up from what I have been taught and have learned through the experience of being in that area of the world. It is a different way of thinking there. There is no such thing as the common good, it is what is good for me... everywhere. Libya, Iraq, Egypt, Israel, Lebanon, etc. It doesn't matter, nobody in the area gives a damn about what their neighbor thinks which is why I am weary to trust anyone in that area.
Sometimes blind faith is the wrong way to run....... BUT for the sake of the career, I guess it comes with the jobSometimes I wonder if I have the political patience to make it to a politically influenced rank.
If I sound a bit flippant/dismissive and "overreact" to your posts it is because there are few things that annoy me more than someone spouting off 'facts' that have little in common with reality :icon_rage , especially about a subject I know very well.
1. Giving up WMD is not a "so what". Only one country developed nuclear weapons then voluntarily gave them up, South Africa (Kazakhstan and Ukraine gave up Soviet developed weapons). Libya giving up its WMD is a significant victory for non-proliferation. You know, part of the reason we went to war with Iraq and a big part of the reason we are pissed at North Korea and Iran.
2. I have no idea what other evidence you need other than employees/agents of a state committing terrorism (proved in court!!). Would Khaddaffi saying that Libya is responsible for acts of terrorism enough for you? I guess not since he has already done that in the settlement over Pan Am 103. What about a taped confession? Maybe a tattoo across his forehead?.......
3. Finally, you don't know the region well if you are spouting off some of the nonsense you have put on this thread. Believe me when I say that I know a hell of a lot more than you do about the whole subject, period.
T
TXHusker05
Guest
Brett it is a bit more than world travel, I lived in the region... specifically Cairo for quite a few years. Now obviously Cairo isn't exactly a hot spot of sorts but it is the crossroads to the region and learn a lot of things there. And if you ever have a chance to visit Cairo, it really is a nice place and don't worry if you don't speak the language... quite a few people speak English.
I am only telling you things that I have learned from over there. I am not making this stuff up off the top of my head, it is stuff I have learned from being there. Much like the things you guys learn about an aircraft carrier the more time you are out there, I learn about the middle east from being there... not 8000 miles away in an American classroom. If you have learned different things, by all means tell me what you have learned. If we have contradicting info, we can work it out easily.... but if you are just going by what you have learned in the news or from a friend... please don't tell me I don't know the area because I spent almost half my life over there.
And Flash, 1) Qadhafi NEVER accepted responsibilities for the Pan Am attack. He made it a point to say that Libya doesn't accept responsibility by giving out the payment. Much later a Libyan UN ambassador accepted responsibility for his officials but not that actions. The payment was to get off the UN/US $hit list. Didn't you read how the payments were done: $10 million to each family member; $4 million when UN Sanctions were removed, $4 million when US sanctions were removed and $2 million when Libya was taken off the US state sponsored terror list. They only paid $8 of $10 million that they promised at the time. It wasn't acknowledgment that they did it, it was to get the sanctions off (A fact later acknowledged by Libyan Prime Minister Shukri Ghanem). Remember, only one of two Libyans tried in the case were convicted. (and the one that was convicted just started another appeal process on May 4th).
And I never said so what to the WMD program, I said that was a big step for Libya but not necessarily all of what they needed to do. I will bow to your wisdom flash but you can't tell me Libya took responsibility for the Pan Am bombing. But I am done arguing about Libya, point here is, I completely disagree with taking them off the state sponsored terror list... we know they still have terrorists there and I would guarantee that their government is supporting them with money and arms. It isn't like they stopped overnight.
As for Cuba, take the restrictions off, honestly what is Fidel going to do? They may be "communist" but they are nice communists compared to, well, China who makes you get rid of kids if you have too many.
I am only telling you things that I have learned from over there. I am not making this stuff up off the top of my head, it is stuff I have learned from being there. Much like the things you guys learn about an aircraft carrier the more time you are out there, I learn about the middle east from being there... not 8000 miles away in an American classroom. If you have learned different things, by all means tell me what you have learned. If we have contradicting info, we can work it out easily.... but if you are just going by what you have learned in the news or from a friend... please don't tell me I don't know the area because I spent almost half my life over there.
And Flash, 1) Qadhafi NEVER accepted responsibilities for the Pan Am attack. He made it a point to say that Libya doesn't accept responsibility by giving out the payment. Much later a Libyan UN ambassador accepted responsibility for his officials but not that actions. The payment was to get off the UN/US $hit list. Didn't you read how the payments were done: $10 million to each family member; $4 million when UN Sanctions were removed, $4 million when US sanctions were removed and $2 million when Libya was taken off the US state sponsored terror list. They only paid $8 of $10 million that they promised at the time. It wasn't acknowledgment that they did it, it was to get the sanctions off (A fact later acknowledged by Libyan Prime Minister Shukri Ghanem). Remember, only one of two Libyans tried in the case were convicted. (and the one that was convicted just started another appeal process on May 4th).
And I never said so what to the WMD program, I said that was a big step for Libya but not necessarily all of what they needed to do. I will bow to your wisdom flash but you can't tell me Libya took responsibility for the Pan Am bombing. But I am done arguing about Libya, point here is, I completely disagree with taking them off the state sponsored terror list... we know they still have terrorists there and I would guarantee that their government is supporting them with money and arms. It isn't like they stopped overnight.
As for Cuba, take the restrictions off, honestly what is Fidel going to do? They may be "communist" but they are nice communists compared to, well, China who makes you get rid of kids if you have too many.
Fly Navy said:I have a plan for Cuba and Iran. Drop ALL sanctions. Commence trade immediately. Infuse them with MTV, McDonalds, and The Gap. In 10 years they (the moron regimes) will crumble. I'm telling you, it'll work.
I was going to give you negative rep points for causing me to snort hot coffee through my nose, but I must spread the rep points around more before I can do that. Mark my words, i'll get you for this Fly Navy, I'll get you....
BTW, it's a good idea!
When boots were about to hit the ground in Iraq in '03, my Scoutmaster joked that we could win the war without a shot fired by dropping in a Girls Gone Wild crew and Playboy Bunnies with the 82nd, and then starting an oil for beer program.Fly Navy said:And while we're restoring trade and relations with Libya (which I support)...
I have a plan for Cuba and Iran. Drop ALL sanctions. Commence trade immediately. Infuse them with MTV, McDonalds, and The Gap. In 10 years they (the moron regimes) will crumble. I'm telling you, it'll work.
We laughed at the time, but you and my Scoutmaster have some good points...
That's great. I'm sure that as a minor, you were intimately involved in all aspects of the local and regional politics. I think you'll get more mileage out of offering some reasonable arguments/assessments of what's going on, rather than insisting on how experienced you are. Your posting indicates a fundamental misunderstanding of the underlying issues and a glaring naiveté about the international political scene in general. You're not the only one who has lived abroad extensively. Some of us were in the region at the time these events were going down - before you were born, I suspect. I was roaming the streets of Cairo and Jerusalem before you were a glimmer in your father's eye, I just don't use that fact to attempt to buttress a flawed argument.TXHusker05 said:
Brett
Brett327 said:
I have to agree wholeheartedly with Brett (I can't believe I am saying that.....
)). While you might have lived in Cario as a young lad that does not make you an expert on North African politics. Instead of spouting off where you have lived (I have spent a total of a year in Japan and I don't pretend to even begin to understand that place), put forth some resonable arguments and you will get a lot further on this board. Please notice that many of the people who have countered your arguments are professional military officers, who have a vested interest in knowing about such things and have a little more experience than a few college courses.
TXHusker05 said:
Have you just rejected logic entirely, or did you not get to that part of your political science studies yet?