USMC M249 SAW Substitute

[Birdog8585]

My old TBS pride and joy "Ursula" (my SAW) is now going away - new Lts will never know what it was like to have 10 tons of CLP spray all over your face when you went cyclic with that pig.

http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com...&utm_source=did&utm_medium=textlink#more-5240

 

[C420sailor]

The "contenders" look like assault rifles to me...?

Bring this puppy back...

 

[Cron]

Bring this puppy back...

The BAR and the WW2/Korea squad automatic fire support doctrine were the first thing that popped into my head when reading the article. The BAR you posted a picture of was manufactured by the Poles on a license; they made a number of modifications to it that made it even better than the original (pistol grip, better sights, et.al.).

 

[A4sForever]

My Auntie Bea liked her BAR ....



But I've never seen a 1918 BAR w/ the cooling vanes and that particular carry handle (C420's pix-above) -- ever. Probably because it's NOT a "true" Colt BAR, but rather a probable Finnish application -- I don't think it's a Polish wz. 1928 because of the forend -- of the 1918 -- in any case, I'm not gonna bet money on it, but I suspect it's an FN Model D light machine gun, used by the Finns, most likely in 7.92mm.

Finnish Army light machine guns, 1918-1945

The BAR was one of the finer creations to spring from the genius that was the mind of John Moses Browning ... the M1918A2 variant (below) ... just like my Dad carried for a while prior to throwing away the bipod (OVER 2 pounds!! ) and carry handle -- then getting his commission -- then moving "up" (?) to a Thompson and later "down" (?) to an M1 Carbine.

Browning Automatic Rifle -- commonly known as the BAR

 

[exhelodrvr]

The BAR was one of the finer creations to spring from the genius that was the mind of John Moses Browning ...

What an amazing individual!

 

[Cron]

But I've never seen a 1918 BAR w/ the cooling vanes and that particular carry handle (C420's pix-above) -- ever. Probably because it's NOT a "true" Colt BAR, but rather a probable Finnish application -- I don't think it's a Polish wz. 1928 because of the forend -- of the 1918 -- in any case, I'm not gonna bet money on it, but I suspect it's an FN Model D light machine gun, used by the Finns, most likely in 7.92mm.

Roger that sir! A quick inspection of the website the picture came from reveals that it is indeed the FN Mle D. The design was a derivative of the wz.1928 so I wasn't too far off, though.

 

[usmarinemike]

As the article states, the major question at the end is 'how will the tactical employment of the Marine rifle squad have to change when you replace the SAW?'

Although too heavy for room clearing and pretty unreliable, the SAW gives a good organic capability to the squad to suppress targets and to do other valuable things like isolate buildings. Put it in the hands of a Marine who isn't afraid to aim it(pretty easy to find) and put it against insurgents who aren't all that savvy at fire and movement(also not hard to find) and it is super deadly. It seems that the Marine Corps is looking to sacrifice these capabilities somewhat by giving a smaller magazine capacity with the same small caliber. Whatever the gurus think will be best I guess. It would seem like a good idea to keep most of the M249s handy in the armory though. Even though they are not the best LMG on the planet, it's the one we have, and after the Marine Corps decides on this new weapon it will still be the only one we have.

 

[A4sForever]

.....the major question at the end is 'how will the tactical employment of the Marine rifle squad have to change when you replace the SAW?'

.... the SAW gives a good organic capability to the squad to suppress targets and to do other valuable things like isolate buildings....

So I guess what you leg-grunt cum-Naval Aviator Jarheads are "really" saying is .... bring back the BAR in either 7.62 x 51 or .30-06 ???

Or just re-institute the M-14 as the squad level auto-wep ???

Or does it have to be belt-fed capable to make everyone happy ???

 

[sodajones]

+1 on the M14 auto. :icon_tong

 

[sickboy]

 

[skidz]

Who's bright idea is it to replace the M249 with a mag only capable weapon? If they want to go with a line of all Ar modular weapons systems (M4, M16, Sr15, Sr25) then why not work on the SHRIKE?

Sure, the mag fed select fire BAR was great and fully capable of the squad support role at the time because the standard rifle that it served with was the M1 Garand, an 8 round capacity semi automatic fire only weapon. It doesn't apply today with today's issued rifle.

 

[A4sForever]

....Sure, the mag fed select fire BAR was great and fully capable of the squad support role at the time because the standard rifle that it served with was the M1 Garand, an 8 round capacity semi automatic fire only weapon. It doesn't apply today with today's issued rifle.

Are you overlooking Korea -- and early Vietnam, for that matter -- when, to quote one source:

"..... In Korea, the much greater range and penetrating power of the BAR and the .30 caliber air cooled machine gun, firing rifle ammunition, usually more than offset the light weight and rapid fire capability of the variety of submachine guns the North Koreans and Chinese , including the Chinese burp guns modeled on Soviet weapons such as the Shpagin PPSh41 , which fired pistol ammunition."

You state "today's issued rifle" ... but what I THINK you're referring to is high(er) capacity weapons -- at least higher than the M1 Garand ... ???

I'd take an M-14 w/ it's cartridge (or something similar) to most shoulder weapons of the day -- particularly when we're talking about non-MOUTs environments. But even then ... it's nice to be able to punch holes in walls.

The ONLY disadvantages -- any war -- that I've ever heard attributed to the BAR (to cite the example closest to the discussion) concerned it's less than "quick-change" barrel and the heavy weight of the overall loadout -- as attested to by my Dad.

 

[C420sailor]

][/B]
The ONLY disadvantages -- any war -- that I've ever heard attributed to the BAR (to cite the example closest to the discussion) concerned it's less than "quick-change" barrel and the heavy weight of the overall loadout -- as attested to by my Dad.

But if you got a few engineers to modernize it...

With today's metallurgy and manufacturing processes, they could probably make it into an even more potent weapon.

 

[exhelodrvr]

Although too heavy for room clearing and pretty unreliable, the SAW gives a good organic capability to the squad

Not that familiar with the 249, but the "pretty unreliable" part seems to make that statement an oxymoron.

 

[Xtndr50boom]

They could always bring an old SEAL team favorite back: