USMC M249 SAW Substitute

[skidz]

You bring up good points A4s. But you were comparing the BAR and M1919 to the enemy's SMGs. Yes, the increase in range and penetrating ability of the 7.62NATO would be nice in a support weapon, which is why we have the GPMG, the M240.

But for a SAW weapon, the suggested replacements listed in the link are basically the same as the original M16A1, or what the AR15 and M14 were first designed to be, a fully automatic lightweight machine gun. Neither fulfilled the position, that's why the M60 and M249 were used in that role with the M16 and M14 filled the main battle rifle role.

It makes no sense to me to have a support weapon so severely restricted by magazine capacity in today's line of firearms in the military. They'll spend as much time reloading as they will firing. And even then, it would nearly no different than giving FA capability back to the standard rifleman.

I'm still for the SHRIKE if they're going for an all Ar platform line. To have both link and mag capability, and mag compatibility, makes a hell of a lot more sense for a Squad Automatic Weapon.

 

[mmx1]

From the other thread on this subject:

As for the IAR? It's been a longstanding project of Gunner Ebby to return to a BAR/RPK type weapon, to address the following deficiencies of the SAW:
*Only accurate from a prone position, and awkward to fire offhand or from a kneeling position
*Increased weight leaves the SAW gunner behind in an assault
*Though it uses 5.56, 5.56 link is still a separate ammo source, and SAW's have mixed reliability with the magwell as they age
*In a 1st/2nd block environment, the SAW is a poor weapon for a discretionary battlefield

I heard secondhand that in a field trial, a HBAR M16 produced twice the hit probability of a SAW. And I believe the original intent was to use a large-capacity mag like the Beta-C (or the large capacity mags used for the RPK), but after that proved to be unreliable, it was dropped. I wouldn't be suprised to see a larger capacity 5.56 mag in development.

As it stands, the SAW's are to be kept around in the platoon TO&E to be reissued if a need arises (say, in Afghanistan's rural battlefield).

The IAR specified a loaded weight under 10lbs with a barrel designed for sustained fire.

 

[LazersGoPEWPEW]

I'd take an M-14 w/ it's cartridge (or something similar) to most shoulder weapons of the day -- particularly when we're talking about non-MOUTs environments. But even then ... it's nice to be able to punch holes in walls.

+1 Completely agree. Switch to a composite stock to reduce some weight and you've got great battle rifle. If I wanted to break down doors I might opt for an M4 or a shotgun. The M-14 is dependable and tough. That .308 round will drop em from pretty far out too. That's why I like it. I can keep dreaming.

 

[MettGT]

Not that familiar with the 249, but the "pretty unreliable" part seems to make that statement an oxymoron.

The fact that the M249 is an open-bolt weapon makes it unreliable for room-clearing in the MOUT environment. Open-bolt weapons have a greater tendency to jam on your first trigger pull. That's why your SAW gunner is never the first one in the room. If you're out in the treeline or isolating from a building, it's a different story.

 

[exhelodrvr]

^^Thanks.

 

[A4sForever]

... stuff ....

All good stuff, too ... and from a bunch of Aviators and wannabe's, to boot !!!

Keep it comin', guys ... who sez jet jocks can't shoot ... ???

 

[HueyCobra8151]

Blah, why stop at the M-14?

I say we go back to the Springfield 1903. Of course I'm not using practical experience with that weapon or any real logic here, but c'mon, think of the nostalgia!

 

[ChuckMK23]

Colt IAR looks like in the final 3 contenders

Looks like the competition is down to three contenders now with Colt IAR in the lead and favored by the folks in Quantico.

Good riddance to that mess that was the M249 SAW - what a mistake that was!

 

[Birdog8585]

That drum will be a hell of a lot quicker and better than that finger guillotine feed tray cover of the SAW - plus you look like a gangster with a tommy.

 

[busdriver]

So say this IAR becomes the norm. Will we see a return to the cut down modern 7.62 machine gun? I know the modern cut down 60 is much better than it's Vietnam counterpart or perhaps a cut down 240? Seems like the 249 was a jack of all trades master of none?

 

[C420sailor]

The downside to the drum is that you can't carry as much ammunition. Drum magazines are very bulky and odd shaped. With ammo cans you can carry far more (flat packed, essentially) in less space.

 

[ChuckMK23]

So say this IAR becomes the norm. Will we see a return to the cut down modern 7.62 machine gun? I know the modern cut down 60 is much better than it's Vietnam counterpart or perhaps a cut down 240? Seems like the 249 was a jack of all trades master of none?

I think the M60E3 is still available in the system - and I want to say that NAVSEA in Crane, Indiana holds ownership of this weapon going forward. Most of the users seem to be SOC types. There was a great article in Small Arms Review a couple of months ago on this.

But the M240 should be the standard mid caliber (7.62mm) GPMG is that not correct? I believe FN Herstal makes a shortened version as well!

 

[usmarinemike]

So the big problem with the M16 is that it fouls so easy because of the direct gas impingement system that blows all the nastiness into the bolt carrier group. Let's make a fully automatic version! After all, we have to find a way to keep Marines busy somehow. They might as well be cleaning weapons non-stop. It'll cut down on people kicking puppies off cliffs.

Let's just start buying AK-47s. Or better yet, issuing all the ones we find.

 

[A4sForever]

So the big problem with the M16 is that it fouls so easy because of the direct gas impingement system that blows all the nastiness into the bolt carrier group...

Any future M-16/AR-type future development has GOT to be gas piston or something "newer & better" ... cleaner & cooler ... otherwise, why even go there??

And then there's still that pesky question of a .22 bullet for combat ... ??

 

[Lawman]

Only problem I see with going from what we have to what they are looking at is Barrel Heat. The one thing the SAW does well is make for a fast easy swap so sustained fire can be maintained. Not saying its gonna be so much a problem with the weapon as teaching your Marines to not make it a problem.