USS Fitzgerald collision in C7F

[Steve Wilkins]

They apparently had no lookouts. As OOD, it is mind boggling to me how if you didn’t have lookouts, how you don’t either personally go check each bridge wing visually periodically or assign someone else to do the same.

Lookouts or no lookouts, the OOD (and JOOD/OOD(U/I) and conning officer) should be doing that anyway, preferably every 15 minutes, but definitely not less than once every 30 minutes. This shit isn't rocket science.

 

[Steve Wilkins]

The work ups ensure the ship and crew are proficient at key mission areas and core competencies using a fleet standardized grading criteria. One of them is RoR, where we have to be evaluated in trainers on our ability to conduct surface transits in foreign port visits, and evaluated at-sea based on live situations.

How many written exams do you have to take per year to maintain proficiency as OOD? I need to take several exams comprised of questions from an approved force exam bank. These include topics from basic navigation to torpedo presets to engineering casualties.

Nuke world vs. SWO world. What you're talking about here doesn't exist in the SWO world, at least not to the extent that you are referring to. Naval Reactors has a lot to do with this.

 

[Steve Wilkins]

SWOS on CD followed by a couple weeks of classroom training for OODs, a DH course full of classroom minutiae followed by some sims for TAOs... the burnden of training is put on individual ships that are in such poor material condition they’d need every crew memeber working 27hrs a day to tackle the mx issues and barely put to sea.

The proper terminology is SWOS in a Box

 

[Steve Wilkins]

The only ones that didn't stand watch on a CVN were the DH who was often an O-6 and any MCPO's (2 maybe 3) they way we had it set up was so that people wanted to qualify fast and get on a better rotation.

I did my second tour on the Lincoln (circa 2003). There were definitely a lot more folks than that who weren't on the watch bill.

 

[Jim123]

No. We've known that for a while. We just haven't done anything about it because we were able to get away with it for so long.

That's a more aggressive way of putting it and closer to the stark reality.

 

[exNavyOffRec]

I did my second tour on the Lincoln (circa 2003). There were definitely a lot more folks than that who weren't on the watch bill.

I am specifically talking about nukes, the practice was if you were a MCPO you only stood proficiency watches, unless you were qualified PPWO then you were on that rotation, the DH also wouldn't be on the rotation since he had to be in Central for many evolutions.

We did have 1 or 2 engineman CPO's and a few conventional MM CPO's that also didn't stand watch, but that was because we didn't have watches they could stand.

 

[Steve Wilkins]

Every single one of them, from the O-1 to the CNO. DivOs, DHs, XOs and COs, FOGOs, all of them had to accept a lower standard. When was the last time the surface folks were good at driving ships and when did the wheels fall off the bus?

Divos, DHs, and XOs are not commanders. And institutionally speaking, even a great CO at the unit (ship) level isn't going to have much impact on the larger Navy organization. Also, your question assumes we were good ship handlers at some point in the past. Were we? When?

To your initial question about why were so many commanders willing to accept such a low standard, I think it's less about accepting low standards and more about just trying to get the job done with the resources (time, money, people) provided. How many times have you heard someone say, "I just have to get through XX more months of this."

 

[Uncle Fester]

That's a more aggressive way of putting it and closer to the stark reality.

It’s the case. I saw guys get their OOD U/W letter and pin as the CO was leaving (literally the morning of the change of command), so that the command and CO wouldn’t look bad by DNQing a JO, but also the CO wouldn’t bear any responsibility for that guy when he stood a watch.

Also saw DHs who weren’t allowed on the watchbill, per the captain’s direction. And heard more of the same from other ships under other COs.

That situation predated “SWOS in a box” so that didn’t cause the problem, but it definitely exacerbated a bad situation. The community was able to get away with it for years. Then you add an unforgiving optempo, which doesn’t allow you time to train, and no depth to your watchstanding bench, and you get, well, this...



Normally it’d take a few horrific battles in wartime to show where a ‘peacetime’ Navy has fallen short. Hopefully this is the wake up call we needed.

 

[Steve Wilkins]

I am specifically talking about nukes, the practice was if you were a MCPO you only stood proficiency watches, unless you were qualified PPWO then you were on that rotation, the DH also wouldn't be on the rotation since he had to be in Central for many evolutions.

I thought you may have been talking about nukes, but wasn't sure.

 

[Swanee]

Divos, DHs, and XOs are not commanders. And institutionally speaking, even a great CO at the unit (ship) level isn't going to have much impact on the larger Navy organization. Also, your question assumes we were good ship handlers at some point in the past. Were we? When?

To your initial question about why were so many commanders willing to accept such a low standard, I think it's less about accepting low standards and more about just trying to get the job done with the resources (time, money, people) provided. How many times have you heard someone say, "I just have to get through XX more months of this."

But at some level each Officer is responsible for maintaining/setting/holding their Sailors/Marines to a standard. Whether that person is a 2ndLt Platoon Commander, an Ens DivO, a Capt or Lt flight lead/aircraft commander, an Lt/LCDR Boat Skipper, (and so on and so forth) they all have a standard to meet.

I don't know when the Navy was ever good at driving boats. I know Naval Aviation is good at flying airplanes, so I assume boat driver would be as good, and that (just like Aviation, or tank drivers, or infantry types, or arty...) the top 10% were better than 90% of any other service (as is true of every other services pilots). Is this not the case?

BTW- none of these are leading questions- I am genuinely curious about how that world operates- because from what you're saying thus far the way I think it works is completely off.

Do you think that by not empowering younger officers with a sense of "command" that the community is lacking? From day 1 I was told that I would be a provisional rifle platoon commander, and that as a pilot, I was really in an aircraft commander syllabus- the early part is that I had to learn how to fly the damn plane well to do that job. But there was always plenty of mentorship and hard learning to develop the judgement and leadership qualities to fit the bill.

Before I could be winged I had to take a jet by myself across the country, away from Dad's watchful eye, not fuck up, and come home on time and in one piece. 2nd Lts were regularly sent 30-50 miles away from their Company HQ, out into the middle of nowhere in Helmend with only their platoon and some attachments. It was just them, maybe 1 other officer, hooking and jabbing in places like Nawzad. They were taught that they were the commander, it was on them.

Do SWOs get ANYTHING like that at all?

 

[robav8r]

Divos, DHs, and XOs are not commanders. And institutionally speaking, even a great CO at the unit (ship) level isn't going to have much impact on the larger Navy organization. Also, your question assumes we were good ship handlers at some point in the past. Were we? When?

To your initial question about why were so many commanders willing to accept such a low standard, I think it's less about accepting low standards and more about just trying to get the job done with the resources (time, money, people) provided. How many times have you heard someone say, "I just have to get through XX more months of this."

Steve - i've said this before and i'll say it again. My first bolded, underlined, italicized quote is a BIG, BIG reason were in this predicament in the first place. Yes, OOD's & JOOD's should be held to the highest possible standards. I understand your point about doing everything possible to avoid criminal charges, but if the shoe fits . . . . . . I joined the Navy at a time when CO's were resourced and given the freedom & schedule to work their commands and crews anyway they saw fit. And we held them accountable when they didn't deliver. What we have done over the last 20 to 25 years is to turn up the temperature of the pot of water on the stove with the frog swimming around in it. I think it's criminal (to an extent - I know, strong word) how we (the Navy) have failed to give our CO's the tools to take care of their commands.

 

[Pags]

But at some level each Officer is responsible for maintaining/setting/holding their Sailors/Marines to a standard. Whether that person is a 2ndLt Platoon Commander, an Ens DivO, a Capt or Lt flight lead/aircraft commander, an Lt/LCDR Boat Skipper, (and so on and so forth) they all have a standard to meet.

I don't know when the Navy was ever good at driving boats. I know Naval Aviation is good at flying airplanes, so I assume boat driver would be as good, and that (just like Aviation, or tank drivers, or infantry types, or arty...) the top 10% were better than 90% of any other service (as is true of every other services pilots). Is this not the case?

BTW- none of these are leading questions- I am genuinely curious about how that world operates- because from what you're saying thus far the way I think it works is completely off.

So what happens when someone fails to meet the standard? Then you're forced to go short handed because if you don't qualify a guy then it's your problem. Sure aviation has the FNAEB process but taking a guys wings isn't easy for training issues; often it's put back on the squadron to "try harder" with the limited resources available to them. And it's much harder to get rid of folks who aren't aviators. During my disassociated tour we had someone fail their OOD board at least for times. Command put the individual ashore while the case went up the chain; eventually they were brought back to the boat to try again. Plenty of folks are made into " HAC buts;" sure they're a HAC, but not at night, not with a 2P, etc.

 

[Swanee]

So what happens when someone fails to meet the standard? Then you're forced to go short handed because if you don't qualify a guy then it's your problem. Sure aviation has the FNAEB process but taking a guys wings isn't easy for training issues; often it's put back on the squadron to "try harder" with the limited resources available to them. And it's much harder to get rid of folks who aren't aviators. During my disassociated tour we had someone fail their OOD board at least for times. Command put the individual ashore while the case went up the chain; eventually they were brought back to the boat to try again. Plenty of folks are made into " HAC buts;" sure they're a HAC, but not at night, not with a 2P, etc.

I mean, I DQ'd at the boat twice. Big Marine Corps had no problems getting rid of me (or 6 other Marines either at the FRS, or within 6 months of joining the fleet). We all were shuffled into the UAV world. HMLA had an even worse rate.

 

[Pags]

So what happens when someone fails to meet the standard? Then you're forced to go short handed because if you don't qualify a guy then it's your problem. Sure aviation has the FNAEB process but taking a guys wings isn't easy for training issues; often it's put back on the squadron to "try harder" with the limited resources available to them. And it's much harder to get rid of folks who aren't aviators. During my disassociated tour we had someone fail their OOD board at least for times. Command put the individual ashore while the case went up the chain; eventually they were brought back to the boat to try again. Plenty of folks are made into " HAC buts;" sure they're a HAC, but not at night, not with a 2P, etc.

Also same problem with sailors. If AIR can't make ABH3 in to a yellow shirt then you're going to function with one less yellow shirt as an ABH2 or ABH1 doesn't do their job or you try and accelerate a shit hot blue shirt. Either way PERS isn't going to send you a new body because ABH3 couldn't cut it (or you couldn't train him appropriately because you command is obviously awful).

 

[Pags]

I mean, I DQ'd at the boat twice. Big Marine Corps had no problems getting rid of me (or 6 other Marines either at the FRS, or within 6 months of joining the fleet). We all were shuffled into the UAV world. HMLA had an even worse rate.

My observation is that the RAGs are more able to attrite guys than the fleet especially when it comes to CQ. but I bet because of those 6 DQs a few fleet squadrons were short bodies... Which then made the VTs have to produce more with a resulting decrease in quality to make up the numbers. At some point it's a zero sum game, there's no way to quickly get more bodies.