USS Fitzgerald collision in C7F

[Max the Mad Russian]

If we have to rely on officers to be the experts to fix and operate every single fucking thing, we are screwed.

Looking at collision, grounding end especially engine fire records of Soviet/Russian Navy, I concur with every bit of this opinion. With no enlisted expertise officers are just sitting ducks for punishment for everithing they can neither foresee nor prevent

 

[Flash]

The Navy has a program to recruit merchant mariners (some of whom have captained USNS types), commission them as 166X strategic sealift officers, and have them evaluate/support bridge procedures and watchstanding underway during busy transits to improve safety. The merchant marines do a good job at nautical instruction. The Navy could probably benefit from schools like SUNY-Maritime as a source of new SWO accessions, because trying to teach someone to safely drive big ships is not a fast process.

Agree! It would be nice if the Navy took more ENS SWOs from the graduating classes of USMMA and USCGA (and those academies in turn encouraged it). Not sure what an exchange program to USMMA or semester-at-sea would look like, but the published collision reports indicate that the surface navy should explore a variety of options for improvement.

Having worked with quite a few Merchant Marine grads from several of the schools I think that is a bass-ackwards way of 'fixing' SWO training. First off there aren't a whole lot of grads from USMMA, USCGA and the state Maritime academies to go around, and there is also the simple fact the USCGA is supposed to produce Coast Guard officers. Second we are likely already get all the folks who want and are qualified to commission as SWO's from those places.

SSO's are their own special animal and have an important, but relatively niche, role in the Navy. Quite a few of the SSO's that I have worked with also don't quite march to the beat of the same drummer as the rest of the military, not usually in a bad way but they often have their own way of doing things that may or may not line up with the military way of doing things. Not suprising since they are all reservists in a community made up of nothing but reservists. Also many SSO's haven't been to sea in years, more than a few since they graduated.

Most importantly though is that the US Navy, the largest in the world, ought to be able to train our SWO's to be competent mariners on our own. Like I said before, the Navy could stand up a SWOS that teaches those skills if they really wanted to in mere months. It might not be 'FOC' for a bit but you could start cycling folks through a decent basic SWO/mariner course pretty rapidly, if the Navy really wanted to make it so.

Then again, during WWII the Navy was giving commissions (and shipboard combat duties) to guys with a solid application and zero time on the water. Somehow they managed to train them quickly and exceptionally well.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L._Ron_Hubbard#Military_career

But he is the exception.

Not really as big an exception as folks seem to think. The more detailed histories of WWII naval warfare I read the more I realize things aren't that much different in the US Navy when it comes to competence, or lack thereof, CO foibles and just plain stupid. The fact that we won in the end papers over many of those issues in WWII, but it doesn't mean they weren't there.

 

[ChuckMK23]

Looking at collision, grounding end especially engine fire records of Soviet/Russian Navy, I concur with every bit of this opinion. With no enlisted expertise officers are just sitting ducks for punishment for everithing they can neither foresee nor prevent

In Russian Navy - the casualty is you!

 

[Uncle Fester]

Most of the Surface Navy’s issues seem to boil down to ‘too much on their plates.’ Admittedly my recent experience is from an Air Det frigate cruise six years ago, but it seemed different only in details from what I saw as a SWO ENS ‘lo these many years ago.

The Shoes on my last boat were run absolutely ragged. An absurd optmepo that left little enough time for required mx and inspections, let alone training and time at home, that was then heaped with additional tasking and significant time underway that was not part of their deployment training cycle (eg, Saxon Warrior). Insufficient training an onboard technical expertise (“just have techreps do it all) just exacerbated the situation.

Basically, they’re dead tired and overworked, and the death of SWOSDOC, eviscerated A-school curricula, and minimal schoolhouse time to train between deployments, means they don’t even have experience and training to fall back on.

The certification and training SURFOR is talking about is a step in the right direction, but if they’re the only steps...I’m concerned this is just going to be like plastering over wood rot.

 

[robav8r]

Most of the Surface Navy’s issues seem to boil down to ‘too much on their plates.’ Admittedly my recent experience is from an Air Det frigate cruise six years ago, but it seemed different only in details from what I saw as a SWO ENS ‘lo these many years ago.

The Shoes on my last boat were run absolutely ragged. An absurd optmepo that left little enough time for required mx and inspections, let alone training and time at home, that was then heaped with additional tasking and significant time underway that was not part of their deployment training cycle (eg, Saxon Warrior). Insufficient training an onboard technical expertise (“just have techreps do it all) just exacerbated the situation.

Basically, they’re dead tired and overworked, and the death of SWOSDOC, eviscerated A-school curricula, and minimal schoolhouse time to train between deployments, means they don’t even have experience and training to fall back on. . . . . this is just going to be like plastering over wood rot.

Too bad the HASC never hears comments like this . . . .

 

[Bergers2short]

With so much doom and gloom on this topic, I'm excited to see some hope for justice via our representative system (I'm naive, I know). Rep. Elaine Luria took her turn grilling the brass yesterday. She was a SWO, retired as a CDR in 2017, and she just started her first-term representing the Norfolk region. May sweet justice come down from her time as an over-taxed CG XO...

Navy Leaders Taken to Task by Lawmakers, Including One Who Was Grilling a Former Boss

Rep. Elaine Luria, an ex-Navy commander, showed her insider knowledge of naval operations in questions to the admirals appearing before a House Armed Services Committee panel.

www.propublica.org

 

[Hair Warrior]

In Russian Navy - the casualty is you!
View attachment 21242

Slava CG!

 

[ChuckMK23]

With so much doom and gloom on this topic, I'm excited to see some hope for justice via our representative system (I'm naive, I know). Rep. Elaine Luria took her turn grilling the brass yesterday. She was a SWO, retired as a CDR in 2017, and she just started her first-term representing the Norfolk region. May sweet justice come down from her time as an over-taxed CG XO...

Navy Leaders Taken to Task by Lawmakers, Including One Who Was Grilling a Former Boss

Rep. Elaine Luria, an ex-Navy commander, showed her insider knowledge of naval operations in questions to the admirals appearing before a House Armed Services Committee panel.

www.propublica.org

"“We continue to be incapable of properly manning, training and equipping our surface forces,” Luria said. “For nearly two decades, we prioritized efficiency over effectiveness.”

Thumbs up!

 

[BackOrdered]

In Russian Navy - the casualty is you!
View attachment 21242

Those cans are more paint than ship from what I've seen.

"“We continue to be incapable of properly manning, training and equipping our surface forces,” Luria said. “For nearly two decades, we prioritized efficiency over effectiveness.”

Thumbs up!

She won my vote.

 

[Max the Mad Russian]

Russian Navy - the casualty is you!

That same Cdr Valery Sablin who undertook the attempt of hijacking of his Krivak-class Storozhevoy in 1975 and flee to Sweden, during his JO time had a tour on some Sverdlov-class cruiser and wrote "those cruisers are floating prisons where a fate of an officer akin to a sentinel in every respect but personal freedom. In this respect he is the poorest prisoner since he cannot explain for what the reason he voluntary trapped in this jail"
As for this Slava-class, the pain in the ass of all crew is main AAW targeting radar (aka "bub", visible from this angle just over helipad). Missiles as such are basically the same S-300, but radar differs completely from the famous land version, and the most funny feature is that it should be cooled by fresh (technologically - distilled) water whose valves and tubes of course were out of service from the beginning and which guys just bluntly used to fill with seawater. As a result, the cooling system is ready to become fucked up at every moment during the main mode radiation, and it is possible to literally fry the eggs just on the transmitter cabinets in a room under that bub and ships of class were in rivalry of who will win with the larger omelet.
In any other respect she is a beautiful ship... With everlasting shortage of the eggs in supply

 

[ATIS]

Let’s just stop the back and forth and get the NAVY in the business to train our SWO's (Enlisted and Officer alike) to drive ships from the basics to the tactical level. Invoking help from civi mariners and the CG dilutes the fact that we...the Navy...have lost our way. Skippers set this mindset, back up their DH's and JO's, ship handling and tactical proficiency are the FITREP/EVAL standard/foundation. DH's and JO's push/delegate down to their Chiefs to handle the shops, monitor don't micro-manage. If I were out of the cockpit 30+ days, I had a standard back in the saddle flight (on top of your annual NATOPs check) where you ran through a standard battery of maneuvers and emergencies to ensure the CO you still could manage one of his aircraft in a safe/competent manner. Is there anything like that on the bridge of a ship (asking??). Take LTJG so and so and hand him a card of standard ship maneuvers and rules of the road situations and say the bridge is yours...execute. If he/she can't drive...get off my bridge or execute training for the member. Why do I think this is a good idea...because this dumb ass on the SS EMPIRE STATE 6 (must have 1989-90 I believe) had a Mate do this to me in the middle of the night. Granted, the scope was clear and we were in the middle of the Atlantic....but he let me drive the ship (both from a conn perspective and on the helm) to practice screwing up, but I gained confidence and over that Summer cruise learned how ships work. Heck...I was just out on a grey hull and asked to get on the helm...I still f-d away checking my swing and blew through my base course. It takes practice. In my SOF support days a few years back I was on one of the last FFG's and the CO was doing this on the bridge with one of the JO’s (besides having flashbacks to the EMPIRE STATE, it was refreshing to see) executing maneuvers and dynamically driving the ship. I'm not a SWO so will ask if this is standard hands on training/continued proficiency training on any Navy grey hull?

Now a taste of reality....I get it, SWO's are overworked and it's true...you are eating a shit sandwich of overtasking and ship handling/tactical proficiency can suffer. For that I will buy any of you a beer at the bar because that is UNSAT and I weep for our Navy.

In the squadron failing a check ride or a NATOPS exam was a fate worse than death. It happened on occasion but not very often in a fleet squadron (in the RAG it was more often seen). Our squadron made sure everyone in the wardroom was trained. We had some weak members when it came to flying and tactics and the senior members took them under their wing and got them up to speed (if the member was self-aware of his/her weakness was willing to accept help). Even with all the personality issues we all had between the members of the wardroom (some slight....some very strong)...when it came down to making sure someone was safe and proficient in the jet....those issues were dropped and every single member excelled. Is this happening across grey hull wardrooms on the waterfront today?

Sorry for the rant folks, writing this seems like I am pissing into a forest fire. I have no chance of influencing or helping make a course correction for any of you on this matter. Standing by to accept all sizes of rocks thrown.

BLIB: We (the NAVY) have lost the bubble (IMO) in SWO training and mindset. From the top down and from the inside out: reduce the queep, get back to basics and train to fight.

ATIS (who's Third Mates license is in a box in the basement....I least I think that's where it is).

 

[Jim123]

ATIS (who's Third Mates license is in a box in the basement....I least I think that's where it is).

It's probably with your SERE certificate.

 

[ChuckMK23]

Let’s just stop the back and forth and get the NAVY in the business to train our SWO's (Enlisted and Officer alike) to drive ships from the basics to the tactical level. Invoking help from civi mariners and the CG dilutes the fact that we...the Navy...have lost our way. Skippers set this mindset, back up their DH's and JO's, ship handling and tactical proficiency are the FITREP/EVAL standard/foundation. DH's and JO's push/delegate down to their Chiefs to handle the shops, monitor don't micro-manage. If I were out of the cockpit 30+ days, I had a standard back in the saddle flight (on top of your annual NATOPs check) where you ran through a standard battery of maneuvers and emergencies to ensure the CO you still could manage one of his aircraft in a safe/competent manner. Is there anything like that on the bridge of a ship (asking??). Take LTJG so and so and hand him a card of standard ship maneuvers and rules of the road situations and say the bridge is yours...execute. If he/she can't drive...get off my bridge or execute training for the member. Why do I think this is a good idea...because this dumb ass on the SS EMPIRE STATE 6 (must have 1989-90 I believe) had a Mate do this to me in the middle of the night. Granted, the scope was clear and we were in the middle of the Atlantic....but he let me drive the ship (both from a conn perspective and on the helm) to practice screwing up, but I gained confidence and over that Summer cruise learned how ships work. Heck...I was just out on a grey hull and asked to get on the helm...I still f-d away checking my swing and blew through my base course. It takes practice. In my SOF support days a few years back I was on one of the last FFG's and the CO was doing this on the bridge with one of the JO’s (besides having flashbacks to the EMPIRE STATE, it was refreshing to see) executing maneuvers and dynamically driving the ship. I'm not a SWO so will ask if this is standard hands on training/continued proficiency training on any Navy grey hull?

Now a taste of reality....I get it, SWO's are overworked and it's true...you are eating a shit sandwich of overtasking and ship handling/tactical proficiency can suffer. For that I will buy any of you a beer at the bar because that is UNSAT and I weep for our Navy.

In the squadron failing a check ride or a NATOPS exam was a fate worse than death. It happened on occasion but not very often in a fleet squadron (in the RAG it was more often seen). Our squadron made sure everyone in the wardroom was trained. We had some weak members when it came to flying and tactics and the senior members took them under their wing and got them up to speed (if the member was self-aware of his/her weakness was willing to accept help). Even with all the personality issues we all had between the members of the wardroom (some slight....some very strong)...when it came down to making sure someone was safe and proficient in the jet....those issues were dropped and every single member excelled. Is this happening across grey hull wardrooms on the waterfront today?

Sorry for the rant folks, writing this seems like I am pissing into a forest fire. I have no chance of influencing or helping make a course correction for any of you on this matter. Standing by to accept all sizes of rocks thrown.

BLIB: We (the NAVY) have lost the bubble (IMO) in SWO training and mindset. From the top down and from the inside out: reduce the queep, get back to basics and train to fight.

ATIS (who's Third Mates license is in a box in the basement....I least I think that's where it is).

The SWO culture mindset is "everyone for himself" - between that, zero defect mentality/punishing anyone who delivers bad news, and short term thinking by careerist CO's and DH's.

We haven't had a true naval battle in 75 years - SWO's have long lost a combat / operational culture mindset. Its now a profession around industrial management - not seamanship.

 

[Griz882]

The SWO culture mindset is "everyone for himself" - between that, zero defect mentality/punishing anyone who delivers bad news, and short term thinking by careerist CO's and DH's.

We haven't had a true naval battle in 75 years - SWO's have long lost a combat / operational culture mindset. Its now a profession around industrial management - not seamanship.

Don’t worry, things will slow down a bit with the Green New Deal Navy in place.

 

[egiv]

overworked ships (NKO, Safety audit, Maintenance Admin inspections).

I think this is a bigger deal than the Navy wants to recognize. The experience @Uncle Fester had is still true today - JOs (especially DHs) are so overwhelmed with day-to-day tasking that becoming truly proficient in ship driving and tactics is nearly impossible. I think that finding a way to cut down on administrative burdens should be a priority and would allow SWOs to focus on their core functions.

What I saw were Officers who were beat up to the point that they didn't even care about any of the warfighting missions that were supposed to be central to their jobs. Where I expected OPS to be excited about cutting-edge exercises to practice advanced surface warfare tactics as TAO, they actually hated them because they knew their life would consist of PPTs, meetings, briefings leading up to it, hourly/daily message updates during, and an AAR afterwards.

Not to say ship life is supposed to be easy - it's a ton of work no matter how you slice it, but we need to decide what we think is important and focus on it, not just pay lip service and then overtask JOs with other random shit and tell them to suck it up if they're struggling.