Agreed. My girlfriend is an Aggie in the Corps and I think some of A&M's traditions are really great, including Muster. Silver Taps seems like a pretty cool idea too.
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VMI vs. The Citadel (this thread is for school bashing!)
- Thread starter DSL1990
- Start date
Agreed. My girlfriend is an Aggie in the Corps and I think some of A&M's traditions are really great, including Muster. Silver Taps seems like a pretty cool idea too.
It is half-way to hell, i.e. 666. Also, every light is extinguished in Barracks. Drum Outs are not fun. I get a chill up my spine every time.
Yeah man, that stuff seems pretty nerve-racking. I figured it had something to do with being like 1/2way to hell or something. Man that's an insane system... ~ how many happen/semester? Do you think because of a 1 strike and you're out policy that loyalty often trumps honor? I really think this is a great discussion.
I am really supprised someone has not sued over this or the ACLU not steped in like they seem to do all the time. The Citadel does not "drum out" folks, but its really sad, even though the person messed up, it still sucks. I think El Cid quit druming folks out in the 1970's but not too sure.
i just found an old newspaper article which touches on drum-outs and other stuff at vmi. current VMI cadets such as AllAmerican can point out any thing in this article which no longer applies since this is pretty old.
Harrier Dude
Living the dream
We had a few on board and they were invited. They were unable to attend for whatever reason. No offense was taken. It was a very informal event in this case (two dudes in the wardroom lounge drinking coffee and shooting the shit). We were at "River City", so I was unable to download the Muster list anyway, so there was no formal reading of the Muster roll.
I've been to several "field expedient Musters" like in Kuwait ('00) and on yet another ship (last year) and it's always a great event. The off-site (i.e. not the main one in College Station) ones are more "party" than "memorial service". The on-campus Muster is a very formal and solemn event.
Probably the most famous Muster was held on Corregidor Island in 1942 before it fell.
These are not in any way "closed" or private events. I'm sure that anybody would be welcome if interested.
It usually depends upon the semester. I believe we had about 8 last semester, but the investigations take so long that there were a couple leftover from last year. The system is pretty sound. If they bring you to trial, you're pretty much guilty or there are a LOT of people who want to see you take the fall.
Surprisingly, the Honor Code is the one thing that trumps loyalties. It is drilled into our heads from day one. The first Rat Bible knowledge you learn are the names of your Cadre. That is immediately after you meet them(the video in on YouTube). Immediately after that, you learn the Honor Code, and you keep learning it. If you get drunk in Barracks, your buddies and BRs will watch out for you, but if you lie, cheat, steal, they will not tolerate it. It's a strange dynamic, but one we hold sacred.
As for the meddling of the ACLU or similar organizations, there just aren't enough people who know about Drum Outs, and we don't talk about it much. We'll complain all damn day about the food and how little sleep we get, but we don't criticize the Honor System in public, nor do we discuss such things with the "unwashed."
The Citadel has had waaay more bad press in the last decade or two than VMI. So, any little thing that might be considered bad is probably going to be looked at with much more scruitny, and in turn, eradicated with greater speed because of all the past negative attention.
Yeah, I remember hearing the announcements during lunch mess about the results of a previous night's honor trial. That went away quickly. Just like that one time my class got to say a prayer before a meal with the rest of the corps... Some gents from VMI did away with that pretty quickly.:icon_rage
Yeah, I remember hearing the announcements during lunch mess about the results of a previous night's honor trial. That went away quickly. Just like that one time my class got to say a prayer before a meal with the rest of the corps... Some gents from VMI did away with that pretty quickly.:icon_rage
See it is here too like that similarly, but I think there are certainly a number of people who are too scared to approach the honor system and report or confront for whatever reason, often because of loyalties. In the end though, I'd say our system definitely works and is one that most MIDN take serious.
I think one thing that needs to change though is too many people view the Honor Courts here as confusing, dark, and secretive. Though anyone can attend any of them (I actually went to one on Weds), observers are never allowed to speak of the case they observed. However, on a positive note, a lot of cases are turned into what's called "XYZ" cases where they replace Mid's names with X,Y,Z, and show what the honor violation stories are and their outcomes, which is a very smart idea I think -- keeps people on their toes and aware of even the little things that people are brought to trial for. They are disseminated weekly at lunch, along with conduct cases too (think drinking in the Dorm, but not lying about it, or being late for end of liberty).
But again, thanks for the responses, very interesting to read about other schools' systems.
Harrier Dude
Living the dream
We used to get "Cadet X" reports outlining violations of the Honor Code. Mostly punishments. I can't remember ever seeing anybody kicked out for an Honor offense at A&M. It's probably happenned, but it's not like VMI/The Citadel in terms of severity.
I always thought the "Cadet X" stories were kind of funny, because 9 times out of 10 everybody knew who "Cadet X" actually was.
That poses a problem for us. The Honor Court is secretive because it has to be here. Since we're such a small group of people, there's a lot of stigma attached to being found guilty, even being investigated is bad. And rumors spread like wildfire.
Also, records are either kept under lock and key, or they are destroyed. The closest thing I can compared being rolled to is being excommunicated from the church. You are utterly cut off from VMI. You can never set foot on Post ever again. There's a stigma attached. It is best for these things to stay private.
Is it really? Wouldn't transparency in the process be beneficial?
I may have over-simplified the matter, allow me to redress it. We are annually briefed on how the system works, i.e. how investigations are handled, how accusations are take, the process to even get to a hearing, etc. This is common knowledge and even printed on the HC charter which is literally posted in every room on Post. The actuals facts of the trial are kept secret and everyone involved is "certified" to keep said details secret. Again, to let the details leak out would be detrimental to all the cadets involved, especially if the accused was deemed innocent. The stigma associated with even being investigated for an Honor violation is terrible. We only have 1400 Cadets, and we all live in close proximity to eachother and rumors spread like wildfire.
See, I'm on the opposite end of the spectrum for you on that one. We can go to any and all Honor Courts that occur as long as there is no other Military Obligation conflict. I think that a) adds clarity and openness to the entire Brigade which makes people trust the Honor system and allows others to take it as serious as we do, and b) definitely adds a bit more of seriousness to all of it, c) also allows people to say "yeah, he got a fair trial," and furthermore makes people trust the system which we agree to abide by, as in the Honor Court isn't out to get you; rather, people are acting in the best interest of the Academy and of the Naval Service.
I just think clarity is the better option here, but I understand your points, though wiht our school only being a little over 4,000, I wouldn't say everyone knows everyone, but everyone hears the same stories, that's for sure.
I just think clarity is the better option here, but I understand your points, though wiht our school only being a little over 4,000, I wouldn't say everyone knows everyone, but everyone hears the same stories, that's for sure.