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VMI vs. The Citadel (this thread is for school bashing!)

Flash

SEVAL/ECMO
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
It's entirely cadet run (with an alumni advisor.)

Is it an alumni or a faculty advisor now? When I was there it was a faculty member, usually someone very senior and respected with some legal knowledge. The advisor when I was there was not an alumnus.

The Honor chair is a C/LTC and, therefore, is on regimental staff. His subordinates (the various vice-chairs) have C/MAJ ranks and are on the various battalion staffs and regimental staff.

Since when was the composition based on rank? We elected guys no matter what their rank and the Chairman my senior year was just a C/CPT, and many members were just PVT's. They were not promoted to any rank either, it was an entirely separate function than anything else. It was one of the most egalitarian and fair things at the school when I was there.

The President of the college must approve all recommendations of dismissal from the corps, but he very rarely goes against the findings of the board.

That caused some controversy when VADM Stockdale was there. He was going to overturn several rulings when the faculty advisor confronted him. The faculty advisor was relieved of his duties as an advisor but VADM Stockdale left shortly after that. He also abolished the fourth class system. A great man but not a good fit for the Citadel, very controversial.

It's a very unforgiving system. You lie, cheat, steal or tolerate (and you get caught, which, surprisingly many do) you will be prosecuted and kicked out of school......It can be a flawed system

Yes, it can be a flawed system, but like the US justice system nothing can be perfect. Some notable flaws that I know of: The only guy who was 'pardoned' by the President when I was there was a guy who said he was a junior instead of a sophomore at a football game (juniors could sit with dates, sophomores could not). He was a member of the junior class but was an academic sophomore. The Honor Court found him guilty, but the President overturned it. Talk about splitting hairs......

An even more infamous incident was around 1989/90/91 when about 1/4 of the Corps was caught making free, unauthorized phone calls by dialing out on a special number (long distance, overseas, etc). It was stealing, plain and simple. The Honor Court, those that had not done it, were ready to kick people out but the Board of Visitors overruled them and no one was ever kicked out. The Board correctly assumed that the school could not afford the loss of that many students. It was debated seriously though by the school and the Board, to kick everyone out. I knew a member of the honor court for that year and he described the episode in detail.

As for Cadre. This is your cream of the crop. The cadre for each individual company is hand selected by the up-coming CO and 1SG.......It's a tough job, but very rewarding.......To be on the cadre, you basically have to not be a shitbag......It was quite the honor for me.

I hope you are joking, some of the biggest tools I knew were Cadre........;) There were plenty of good guys, and I am assuming you are one of them, but they defintely picked a few of their buddies/screamers/dumbasses to do that duty. Granted, I was never offered the privilege, I 'rocketed' out of there as a PVT all four years (broken by one semester as a CPL and two weeks as a 2/LT). For some strange reason, grades and fun were my priorities. :party_125 You know what they called the Navy contract C/LTC the day we graduated? Ensign, just like me. ;) The funny thing, I out rank him now, he reset his clock when he went JAG.

Is it really? Wouldn't transparency in the process be beneficial?

If I remember correctly you could attend the trial if you were a cadet, if the accused agreed to an open trial. A bare outline of the case was also published in a weekly posting of punishments after the decision, but you usually knew the details of it anyways. When someone was acquitted, it only took one vote out of the 10 cadets sitting on that case to acquit, the tapes were destroyed if there was an acquittal. If an accusation was made the case usually went to trial, I knew a few guys who were acquitted. Some were relatively weak cases but the trial was done to make sure that it was fair and was not swept under the rug.

I am really surprised someone has not sued over this or the ACLU not stepped in like they seem to do all the time. The Citadel does not "drum out" folks, but its really sad, even though the person messed up, it still sucks. I think El Cid quit drumming folks out in the 1970's but not too sure.

They actually used to actually have the cadet present when they drummed them out, the way they got them to take part is that they would not transfer credits if they did not. They stopped many years ago though, so it has changed a bit.

The Citadel never drummed anyone out as far as I know, that was one of the few things that Conroy used in Lords of Discipline that was not from the Citadel but from VMI. I don’t agree with it but that is VMI’s thing, they can have it.

Surprisingly, the Honor Code is the one thing that trumps loyalties. It is drilled into our heads from day one. If you get drunk in Barracks, your buddies and BRs will watch out for you, but if you lie, cheat, steal, they will not tolerate it. It's a strange dynamic, but one we hold sacred.

The same attitude existed at the Citadel, if there was an honor violation and you reported it you were not ‘bilging’ your fellow cadet. I only saw one case were that became an issue and it revolved around an ‘improper question’. Fortunately, it was not an honor case but a standard disciplinary action.

We'll complain all damn day about the food and how little sleep we get, but we don't criticize the Honor System in public, nor do we discuss such things with the "unwashed."

Surprisingly, I heard very bitter complaints from all of my good buddies who went to VMI about the honor system. I won’t go into details, but their class’s system was a bit flawed.
 

jollygreen07

Professional (?) Flight Instructor
pilot
Contributor
Re: advisor
I don't know who it is now, but COL Rembert was the advisor, If I remember correctly, for the majority of the time I was there. He was both faculty, and alumni. I may have just over-generalized.

Re: honor committe rank
The rank is appointed after election to the committee. They are promoted, though, for their position so there are no senior privates any more on the honor committee. However, there were many company honor reps who were privates all three years before becoming seniors, so it was just something the administration required.

Re: VADM Stockdale
Yeah. We know all about him. One of the TACs there now is made fun of a good deal because he was class of 85, or whatever the class was that didn't have a system.

Re: Honor system
It's not a perfect system, and that's all I was saying. Nothing more, nothing less. No bitching. I never got involved with it, so I have no room to complain.

Re:Toolbag cadre
I didn't include rank in my previous post to make any kind of comparison between those that held rank, and those that didn't. It was only to answer the question and be as specific as possible. I completely agree that the cadre had it's fair share of tools, but so does every orgainization of that type. As for the buddies: why would you want to do that to a buddy? Sounds like a definate Blue Falcon to me. The screamers/dumbasses.. well they have a bad tendency to get company commanders fired and themselves a BT/120. It's not old corps like in your day, Flash. ;)
 

Flash

SEVAL/ECMO
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
Re: advisor
I don't know who it is now, but COL Rembert was the advisor, If I remember correctly, for the majority of the time I was there. He was both faculty, and alumni. I may have just over-generalized.

He was the one fired by Stockdale, good to see he is back.

Re: honor committe rank
The rank is appointed after election to the committee. They are promoted, though, for their position so there are no senior privates any more on the honor committee. However, there were many company honor reps who were privates all three years before becoming seniors, so it was just something the administration required.

Well, that is stupid......:(

Re: VADM Stockdale
Yeah. We know all about him. One of the TACs there now is made fun of a good deal because he was class of 85, or whatever the class was that didn't have a system.

Col Rembert is the one who told me the story, he was a Maj at the time and basically told Stockdale to stuff it. He had tenure though, which is why he is still around. Like I said, great man but not a good fit.

Re: Honor system
It's not a perfect system, and that's all I was saying. Nothing more, nothing less. No bitching. I never got involved with it, so I have no room to complain.

I was actually trying to make a point that while it is not perfect, I thought it worked the vast majority of time. A classmate was brought up on shaky charges, an upperclassman thoguht he saw something during a test, etc. He was acquitted, rightfully so I thought. I guess I forgot to add that part at the end of my anecdotes.

Re:Toolbag cadre
I didn't include rank in my previous post to make any kind of comparison between those that held rank, and those that didn't. It was only to answer the question and be as specific as possible. I completely agree that the cadre had it's fair share of tools, but so does every orgainization of that type. As for the buddies: why would you want to do that to a buddy? Sounds like a definate Blue Falcon to me. The screamers/dumbasses.. well they have a bad tendency to get company commanders fired and themselves a BT/120. ;)

I was just picking on you! :D

It's not old corps like in your day, Flash. ;)

No, you had female cadets. ;)
 
D

DesertRat

Guest
I was a boat school guy, but I spent quite a bit of time at Embry Riddle in Arizona, with friends going there. Its an awesome school, nice area. Texas A&M is great place as well, just a lot bigger than Embry Riddle. I was really impressed with the size of the classrooms at Embry Riddle you get alot of face time with the profs and aren't restricted to the rigid structure of a military school.
 

FLYTPAY

Pro-Rec Fighter Pilot
pilot
None
As for Cadre. This is your cream of the crop. The cadre for each individual company is hand selected by the up-coming CO and 1SG, and approved by the Commandant's Department. They are the ones that train the incoming freshmen class on everything to do with life at the school, from basic customs and courtisies, to how to correctly arrange the room for inspection. It's a tough job, but very rewarding. It consists mostly of Juniors (probably the best part of Jr. year, IMHO) with a few seniors and sophomores for oversight/admin respectively. To be on the cadre, you basically have to not be a shitbag, and be someone who isn't going to do something stupid and get yourself (or anyone else, for that matter) kicked out of school. .
Not true. As a senior private, I have outperformed the overwhelming majority of cadet officers. Plus, I know plenty of shitbags who were on cadre.
 

phrogpilot73

Well-Known Member
Not true. As a senior private, I have outperformed the overwhelming majority of cadet officers. Plus, I know plenty of shitbags who were on cadre.
Are you sure you didn't go to the Naval Academy? The same holds true, a lot of them are successful in college, but can't transfer that to the fleet...
 

Navyfan06

Registered User
pilot
Not true. As a senior private, I have outperformed the overwhelming majority of cadet officers. Plus, I know plenty of shitbags who were on cadre.


Oh oh oh FLYTPAY - you know your just jelous because you wanted to flame on some poor knobbies. Admit it :p:p
 

Bird85

New Member
None
Re: VADM Stockdale
Yeah. We know all about him. One of the TACs there now is made fun of a good deal because he was class of 85, or whatever the class was that didn't have a system.

I can assure you as a member of the class of 1985, we had a 4th class system!
Now, Stockdale resigned in 1980. The class of 1983 had just completed its Knob year. After all the controversy of that year (drunk Senior pointed a loaded weapon at a knob), and MG Grimsley took over as President of the school, they put some limits on knob punishment. The class of 1982 and 1983 had unlimited "racking" of the knobs for the most part. For the class of 1984, only the cadre could punish, and then pushups, drive-by's, racking parties were scaled back. This continued for my class, but realize that the Junior and Seniors during my knob year were used to the "old corps" days and knob punishment was still meted out, but more privately. Some upper class got caught and got busted. I think as the years went by and by the time I was a senior, the 4th class system was vastly improved.

So, back to the original question - go visit The Citadel. I think VMI is an outstanding school and either choice is a good one.
 

jollygreen07

Professional (?) Flight Instructor
pilot
Contributor
Re: VADM Stockdale
I can assure you as a member of the class of 1985, we had a 4th class system!
Now, Stockdale resigned in 1980. The class of 1983 had just completed its Knob year. After all the controversy of that year (drunk Senior pointed a loaded weapon at a knob), and MG Grimsley took over as President of the school, they put some limits on knob punishment. The class of 1982 and 1983 had unlimited "racking" of the knobs for the most part. For the class of 1984, only the cadre could punish, and then pushups, drive-by's, racking parties were scaled back. This continued for my class, but realize that the Junior and Seniors during my knob year were used to the "old corps" days and knob punishment was still meted out, but more privately. Some upper class got caught and got busted. I think as the years went by and by the time I was a senior, the 4th class system was vastly improved.

To quote MB- "My knowledges have increased!"
 

jollygreen07

Professional (?) Flight Instructor
pilot
Contributor
Not true. As a senior private, I have outperformed the overwhelming majority of cadet officers. Plus, I know plenty of shitbags who were on cadre.

Well, as a whole, I would argue that most of the people on cadre actually wanted to be there. It was always nicer before the majority of the corps came back, because the bitching was always greatly reduced, and there was very little in the way of disciplinary problems. But, that was just my experience.
 

FLYTPAY

Pro-Rec Fighter Pilot
pilot
None
Oh oh oh FLYTPAY - you know your just jelous because you wanted to flame on some poor knobbies. Admit it :p:p
I ran a knob out and pounded the quad during football season....not jealous at all....fukcer did not make it very long and his dad demanded blood....boohoohoo
 

DSL1990

VMI Cadet 4/c, MIDN 4/c
from another forum:

I bet you fall out of every rifle run, spend 30 seconds of effort at each sweatparty providing you dont ride the GIM, and OGA everyone who hurts your feelings which will happen often especialy once your co matriculates figure out that you are worthless and either shun you or tell you every day to kill yourself in which case you will f**k them over by reporting entire companies to settle some stupid problem you brought upon yourself. I advise you to reconsider your choice of schools.

i think i properly responded to this:

Sir, no, sir!
 
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