War with Iraq Continued

[davidsin]

Well said Kimphil

Speaking of SUVs we were having a lunch meeting at an open outdoor dining place, and noticed like 7 SUVs pass within a minute. Each one had one driver on a cell phone whizzing by. I was thinking how self-indulgent we’ve become. Do we really need to drive this huge thing to work? I mean give me a break man they’re taking up all the street space with those huge gas-guzzling monster vehicles. Now we got Joe Smoe driving a fat hummer to work. It’s not like LA doesn’t already have traffic and smog problems. The thought makes me feel like we’re regressing.

But it is the American way. It’s kind of like our diet. You know that we’re the fattest people in the world? We literally choose to eat crappy food over good food. I hope popular culture accepts sustainable means of living, which it is slowly but not surely happening. If we continue this lifestyle government, oil companies and car companies won’t worry about investments as much as they’ll have to worry about the stench from the ocean from all the animals beaching themselves, the bitter taste of the water supply killing people, and the incredibly unpredictable and extreme weather. From the looks of it, we’re accepting our destiny. It’s like a pool we’re in, and everyone is pissing in it. Including ourselves, so in a sense none of us has the ground rebuke another person for pissing in the pool, or polluting the air or contributing to a war. We’re all doing it together. All things will come to bear upon another. It’s just a matter of time.

Here’s a scenario…America scales back in consumption, finds more efficient ways of running things and burns a lot less oil. SUVs stop selling as much, and we think the world is becoming a cleaner and better place because of this. Our economy shrinks because we decide not to invade other countries for whatever interest we might have, the energy and motor companies are not having their way, and we have fewer interests overseas because of all this, so we shrink our military budget and focus on homeland security. We have no presence in the Middle East. Then the east wind blows Asia’s industrial smog straight to the coast of California into the interior of the US for us to take a big whiff of. China industrializes at a phenomenal rate with a robustly growing economy that eclipses the US taking away our allies Japan and unifying Korea sending US troops stationed there home. Then you got 1.5-2 billion oil thirst-panting ravens perched at the doors of the oil fields of the Middle East waiting to pounce like flies on poop. We can do nothing about it. The EU fills the void left by the US in Asia, and the US is no longer a world power. It’s a scary thought I think. It can be a reality--one that I, nor any other American would not want to be alive to experience. We’re doing the right thing going in now and securing our position in a vital region in the world. Fr+Germ+China+Russia may try to protest it. I personally think they’re just jealous we got a good reason to do it.






Because the foolishness of God is wiser then men, and the weakness of God is stronger then men.

1 Corithians 1:25

 

[psrogers]

Too bad no one has an opinion around here these days, hehehe.

Well I AM a policy maker, but I'll let you rest your eyes.

All I really know is that with 150,000 troops and 4-6 CVBG's in the region or heading there, is there really any doubt that the war drums are beating.

Now we need to see how long the war lasts, and what are we going to do afterwards.

 

[killdaddy]

We do what our Commander In Chief asks of us. Once you take that oath to support and defend the Constitution of the United States, thats it, you are at the becon call of the President. We don't question orders, we follow them. If he says we go, we go full tilt boogie until he yanks our chain back. That is our job, that is what we do. As officers, we better do it better than everybody else because we set the example for others to follow. Stay motivated, Semper Fi.

 

[davidsin]

ooh-rah killdaddy ...

Because the foolishness of God is wiser then men, and the weakness of God is stronger then men.

1 Corithians 1:25

 

[kimphil]

Originally posted by davidsin

Our economy shrinks because we decide not to invade other countries for whatever interest we might have...

This sounds like colonialism. That went out in the 20th century with communism.

the energy and motor companies are not having their way, and we have fewer interests overseas because of all this, so we shrink our military budget and focus on homeland security. We have no presence in the Middle East.

You assume that our presence in the Middle East is a good thing. Excluding Iraq, the most oppressive regimes in the Middle East are propped up by the US. Saudia Arabia, a monarchy, is in power because of American support, not despite it. Egypt, a dictorship and another oppressive regime, recieves $2 billion a year in US aid. Al Qaeda hates these regimes almost as much as it hates the US. Eighteen of the nineteen terrorist on 9/11 came from these two countries. See a pattern? Our support for these undemocratic regimes create the radicals that Al Qaeda recruits. If you sympathize with Palestinians, you could also throw in the Israelis ($3 billion a year in aid) but I digress.

On the other hand, there is one country in the region that is quickly liberalizing, showing indications of a nascent democracy -- Iran. Does it enjoy American support? Of course not.

Then the east wind blows Asia?s industrial smog straight to the coast of California into the interior of the US for us to take a big whiff of. China industrializes at a phenomenal rate with a robustly growing economy that eclipses the US taking away our allies Japan and unifying Korea sending US troops stationed there home. Then you got 1.5-2 billion oil thirst-panting ravens perched at the doors of the oil fields of the Middle East waiting to pounce like flies on poop.

It's unlikely that China will duplicate our industrialization. One, with over a billion people, China would quickly become a giant armpit (not good for growth or posterity) and two, future technology will give China alternatives to the internal combustion engine.

The EU fills the void left by the US in Asia, and the US is no longer a world power. It?s a scary thought I think.

Hey, the Roman Empire fell, civilization survived. The Spanish Empire exploited indigenous cultures, good riddance. The British Empire faded, we did okay. If the EU or China can run the world better than us, the more power to them.

Like I said before I am for this war 100%, and any other war we get sent to.

Not every war America fights is just. The Spanish American War was fought because we believed the Spanish attacked the USS Maine. In fact the Maine's sinking was an accident, not sabotage. Our escalation of the war in Vietnam was based on the lie called the Gulf of Tonkin.

Originally posted by killdaddy

Originally posted by davidsinWe do what our Commander In Chief asks of us. Once you take that oath to support and defend the Constitution of the United States, thats it, you are at the beck and call of the President. We don't question orders, we follow them.

Don't get me started about our Commander-in-Chief. I didn't vote for him, and I didn't vote for the five Justices who made him President. Whatever orders I might have to follow as an Officer don't have anything to do with my rights as a private citizen to question those orders. After all, I'd have to take the uniform off at some point (at least to shower).

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Mongol General: ...Conan, what is best in life?
Conan: To crush your enemies, see them driven before you, and to hear the lamentation of the women!
Mongol General: That is good.

 

[Banjo33]

Question orders? That's just plain nasty AND unsat.

Errrr, kill.

 

[Taxman2A]

Quick question- I'm only a 21 year old, so while I was alive during the gulf war, my ability to think critically about the war, and my ability to take in the general public's feelings about this war were obviously not yet developed. My question is this- regardless of whether you think this war is right or not, has there ever been so ill-received a war besides Vietnam? It just seems to me that not only does a large proportion of the civilian population disagree with this war, but a large amount of the military community as well.

 

[esday1]

A bunch of people in my family buy heavily into the stereotype of people who serve or want to serve in the military as ignorant bloodthirsty meatheads who believe whatever they're told, and I think I might point some of them in the direction of this thread to dispel that stereotype. Pretty intelligent, well thought-out posts on both sides.

One small thing I might like to add: the appearance of irrationality doesn't necessarily mean someone is irrational. Sometimes someone can get what they want by getting others to act on the assumption that they're irrational. A good example of this is if drivers of two cars are playing a high-speed game of chicken, and one driver visibly throws the steering wheel out the window. Another example is a kid who throws a temper tantrum, because sometimes their parents will give them what they want on the assumption that the kid is out of control and acting irrationally. If you're interested in reading a more academic discussion of this, look for stuff by an economist named Schelling (his stuff comes up a lot in economics/game theory and international relations classes).

Also, I think it's really impossible to have military goals which are completely independent of political goals. Call me a firm believer in Clausewitz ("war is the continuation of policy by other means"), if you will. In Afghanistan our goal was not just so much to capture specific chunks of land as to change a political situation which was conducive to the operation of terrorist strikes against the United States. In Iraq I assume (leaving aside the argument about oil for a moment, although I'm not too fond of SUVs either) that the rationale for war is to change a political situation in Iraq which could lead to attacks on the United States. To do this, however, is going to require a pretty significant investment of U.S. resources AFTER the defeat of Iraq. When the president's aides try to claim that the whole thing is only going to cost $60 billion (less than congress and Bush increased farm subsidies by last year) and will require no domestic sacrifices, this makes me VERY skeptical about how willing they are to do what needs to be done after the war. So I guess you could say I'm somewhat against it now, but once it starts I'm going to hope and pray that we win quickly and do the right thing once the war is over.

"Peace on earth to men of goodwill. All others stand by."

 

[esday1]

Taxman- in a class I took this year, we read some opinion stats which showed that the levels of support and opposition to the Vietnam war were fairly similar to those during the Korean War. And let's not forget World War I, or what pretty much everyone in America except for FDR thought about the "European War" before December 7, 1941.

Even though as a Democrat I'll readily admit that there are probably more Republicans in the military, it seems to be that the military is never really as ideologically unified (other than on some basic things such as patriotism, duty, and democracy) as some people seem to think. My guess is there are a lot of people in the military on either side of the argument. A lot of the time when people (on the left or the right) try to make some sort of claim like "the military thinks..." they're really just trying to hide their own agenda.

"Peace on earth to men of goodwill. All others stand by."

 

[The Wiz]

I think krtyxl said what i was trying to say and hit the nail on the head. Saddam needs to go no doubt hes been given all the chances to comply and he hasnt, The point that im trying to make is that we need to do this thing right, to minamize injury to our guys, thats my concern.I also agree that President Bush did a great job in his state of the union, i agree with everything he has done on the Terrorism and Iraq issues. Also God bless all the troops overseas and their familys.

 

[kimphil]

Originally posted by esday

When the president's aides try to claim that the whole thing is only going to cost $60 billion (less than congress and Bush increased farm subsidies by last year) and will require no domestic sacrifices, this makes me VERY skeptical about how willing they are to do what needs to be done after the war.

You're onto something here. Lawrence Lindsey, who was the Bush Senior Economic Adviser publicly estimated the cost of the war at between $100 to $200 billion. This earned him a pink slip from the President. We are told by the administration that we can pay for a war in Iraq, pay for a new department of Homeland Security, more money for the military, a prescription drug plan for the elderly, more money for education, foreign aid for Africa, while at the same time making permanent his original tax cut plans and introducing a new dividend tax reduction. I don't think the numbers add up. So if we do invade Iraq, I have serious reservations as to whether the US will do the right thing and have a long-term presence afterwards. Remember, after we helped Afghanistan get rid of the Soviets, the country degenerated into civil war and we backed out. We left Afghanistan a failed state with stockpiles of Cold War weapons to kill themselves. Not only was this irresponsible, but it had the ironic and unintended consequence of creating a breeding ground for terrorists who wanted to kill Americans.

So I guess you could say I'm somewhat against it now, but once it starts I'm going to hope and pray that we win quickly and do the right thing once the war is over.

I'm with you here on that. While I have a healthy scepticism about our leaders and their motivations, I have faith in our military and hope for the best.

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Mongol General: ...Conan, what is best in life?
Conan: To crush your enemies, see them driven before you, and to hear the lamentation of the women!
Mongol General: That is good.

 

[ghost_ttu]

The solution to having a positive outlook on going to war is to move to Texas. Not counting a few minority liberals that live in Dallas, Houston, and God knows Austin, the rest of the state is pretty right wing. In which case, troops that leave and return from and to Texas will be sent off and welcomed very well. There is a larger chance for a protestor to get the sh!t kicked out of them for protesting on the return or departure of troops, than the possibility of troops being sent away or welcomed with anything less than respect and honor. It nearly makes me puke when I turn the television on and see war protest, when the very people that Iraq has the ability to supply killed Americans on this land. I wonder how many of the people that protest this war lost a loved one in the 9/11 or any other terrorrist attack?

Eliminate distractions, focus on your goals and visualize what you hope to accomplish.

 

[esday1]

We are told by the administration that we can pay for a war in Iraq, pay for a new department of Homeland Security, more money for the military, a prescription drug plan for the elderly, more money for education, foreign aid for Africa, while at the same time making permanent his original tax cut plans and introducing a new dividend tax reduction. I don't think the numbers add up.

Read "The Best and the Brightest" by David Halberstam sometime. I'm just finishing it right now. The last chapter talks a lot about how Johnson's unwillingness to be honest about what the war would cost, and unwillingness to address the conflict between the war and Great Society, taxes etc., led to some pretty serious economic problems that took decades to solve. Basically the beginning of major structural defecits in the government budget and a long-term recession. John McCain's intro to the book is pretty good too.

"Peace on earth to men of goodwill. All others stand by."

 

[kimphil]

Originally posted by ghost_ttu
The solution to having a positive outlook on going to war is to move to Texas. Not counting a few minority liberals that live in Dallas, Houston, and God knows Austin, the rest of the state is pretty right wing. In which case, troops that leave and return from and to Texas will be sent off and welcomed very well. There is a larger chance for a protestor to get the sh!t kicked out of them for protesting on the return or departure of troops, than the possibility of troops being sent away or welcomed with anything less than respect and honor.

Protesting our leadership's exercise of force and personally criticizing the men and women who serve in our armed forces is two different things. I haven't said one negative thing about our forces in any of my posts. Opposing the use of force does not equate to attacking the military. As for the state of Texas being filled with a "right wing" population, I would hardly categorize the large African American population of East Texas or the Latino population of South and West Texas as "right wing." Also, if you look at the composition of the House of Representatives from Texas, 17 are Democrats (as opposed to 19 Republicans). Not what I would call a overwhelming right wing majority.

It nearly makes me puke when I turn the television on and see war protest, when the very people that Iraq has the ability to supply killed Americans on this land. I wonder how many of the people that protest this war lost a loved one in the 9/11 or any other terrorrist attack?

Again, we are told Saddam has the ability to supply terrorists, but does he have the motivation? Do terrorists even need Saddam to supply them with weapons when there's evidence from Afganistan that they are capable of manufacturing rudimentary chemical weapons? All we have to go on are some assertions by the Bush administration that Saddam has contacts with Al Qaeda, and NO proof. And, if having contact with terrorists is a crime, then we can't ignore countries like Iran, Libya, Syria, Sudan, the Palestinians and possibly Saudia Arabia.



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Mongol General: ...Conan, what is best in life?
Conan: To crush your enemies, see them driven before you, and to hear the lamentation of the women!
Mongol General: That is good.

 

[kimphil]

Originally posted by esday
Even though as a Democrat I'll readily admit that there are probably more Republicans in the military, it seems to be that the military is never really...ideologically unified...

Hey esday, you shouldn't out yourself (as a Democrat). What will people think? All military men are Republicans.

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Mongol General: ...Conan, what is best in life?
Conan: To crush your enemies, see them driven before you, and to hear the lamentation of the women!
Mongol General: That is good.