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What Navy boys do with Air Force jets....
- Thread starter contrail_dash
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T
TSPO
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sounds like a load of bs to me, you know, an urban myth in the making...
I won't argue with the statement that making a habit of taking shortcuts that compromise safety is good practice. I'll let my posts stand as is. As an aside, I am the safety officer for an airborne law enforcement unit. I know risk management and operational necessity. Although I did drink the bug juice (didn't drink coffee or eat candy bars so it was an energy source), my comment was in reference to the Jim Jones mass suicide back in the 80s. He had his brain washed followers knowingly drink poisoned kool aide. To drink the kool aide means you are brain washed.
doubledown
Registered User
Someone spoke of levenworth earlier. The guy runs a porn site and could get 14years? That's a lot of time for something so simple. I want to know what kind of things are going to end up in someone getting court martialed. Is it common? Do they tell you what not to do? You see on tv people in the military talking about "i could get court martialed for this, but i'll do it any way". So I just want to know more about the military judicial system I guess.
Nikki
Registered User
I hate the new bdu's for the AF. We have to test them here at Elmendorf. The blue color is absolutely ridiculous. I don't care if we don't have to blend in with our surroundings. I guess I am more traiditional, but I think all the branches should be uniform as far as bdu's. I don't mind the Marine Corps cap, I think it looks sharp. As far as wearing blues, god I hope not. I would rather wear my baggy bdu's over blues anyday..ugggh
I think running a porn site from the AFA on a school computer or line is very worthy of court martial and it sort of disturbs me that some of you seem to think it is no big deal. This isn't a generation gap. You are going to be officers in the military. If you haven't figured it out yet, the military and the public hold you to a higher standard. Folks may talk about the military being the mirror image of society at large, but don't fool yourself. Your responsiblities and the consequencies of your actions do not resemble those you would encounter in the civilian world. That said, court martial of an officer is very rare. Anyone not intimately familier with the post Tailhook '91 witch hunt should learn about it. It is an extreme case I hope we never see again, but it is instructive.
That is definitely true. Im not sure why they dont stick the IPs out in the world for a short tour to get some real world experience before they come back and teach. But also, its not like they graduate and then next day they are on the flightline teaching folks to fly. They go through a pretty rigorous instructor course at Randolph before they come back to teach. Im telling you though, that part about attention to detail and following instructions down to the letter is no sh*t. That is beat into your head from the first day of ROTC/Academy/AMS/OTS. I know ROTC stories are gay, but this is a relevant one: I was at field training between my sophomore and junior year waiting in line to make our 3 minute phone call that we get during the encampment. There was a Dasani bottled water machine, and I asked if I could get one. I was sick of drinking canteen water for weeks on end. The Major said we werent allowed to have anything out of the machines. I said,"Well its not a Coke, its only water." He then went on a 10 minute tirade about never bending the rules because if I was ever in a plane that had a max bank angle of 60 degrees and I tried to "bend the rules," I would would make the thing fall out of the sky and kill my crew just because I thought I was better than the rules. After that I gave up because it just wasnt worth it. So much for thinking out of the box.
Damn that must have been one helluva field evolution. YOU HONESTLY HAD TO DRINK OUT OF A CANTEEN AND ONLY GOT THREE MINUTES OF PHONE TIME? I hope they didnt make you do anything too strenuous like keep you up late or make you sleep outside or anything. If you had to run a physical fitness test the next morning, that could seriously screw up your ability to ride that exercise bike. ;-)
Semper Fi
Semper Fi
vegita1220
User
Mmmm Dasani water....
Patmack: I think you hit the nail on the head. I am having a very hard time understanding why the AF does things as they do, especially on the EP side. Granted, I hated having to memorize all those EPs for the 34, but simply put it made me feel much safer and bulit confidence when you correctly solved every EP the IP would throw at you IN THE AIR!
Adding to this, one thing they seem to be stressing here (to the 37 trained kids) is that now that they are in T-1s, they can start thinking and using their heads. My thoughts on this: WTF!!! Apparently, in 37s if they deviated at all from what was written, even if it made total common sense and brought about a safe resolution to the problem, THEY WERE WRONG! And guess what, according to the Navy guys some weeks in front of me, those AF kids who do try to use their heads in stand-up in T-1s are still being told they are wrong if they use common sense to easily solve the problem. They want it by the book, everytime, no exceptions, NO THINKING!!!
During primary, I had an O-5 IP with 20 years of experience give me multiple 5s on a RI flight b/c I threw out the book and used my head during the busiest part of the flight which allowed me to pull off what I had to do even though he didn't think (at first) that I could accomplish the instrucitons Corpus approach gave. I get the feeling had I done the same thing here I would have been thrown out of the program.
Here's the proof: In a stand-up, guys were given a Master Caution in the pattern at the 180 for a cabin overtemp annunciatior. The studs decided to extend their pattern some (not much, just enought to analyze the problem), then came around for a full stop, and emergency egressed the plane on the runway (meaning they freaked out a bit, problem wasn't that serious). Well, guess what, the IPs didn't agree with their decision to land. They wanted them to break out of the pattern and solve the problem in the air AS IS WRITTEN!!! Hello, anyone home??? The other Navy guy in my class and I were like: Just land, taxi clear (they would have known by now it wasn't too serous a problem and they would have the ability to taxi clear), and resolve the problem on the ground. But no no no, no thinking of any sort allowed apparently. I have had stories similar to shared w/ me by other guys ahead of me in the program.
Now, I will say that the AF is doing some things that I really like that the Navy didn't. The computer instruction for ground school is absolutely first rate, as are the civilians who do the classroom portions. The simulator instructors overall are far more patient and professional than the ones in Corpus; they take time to teach you and don't explode b/c you didn't do something perfectly on your first try. Also, since I haven't started flying the T-1 yet, I can't say what actually goes on in the air with respect to this.
Adding to this, one thing they seem to be stressing here (to the 37 trained kids) is that now that they are in T-1s, they can start thinking and using their heads. My thoughts on this: WTF!!! Apparently, in 37s if they deviated at all from what was written, even if it made total common sense and brought about a safe resolution to the problem, THEY WERE WRONG! And guess what, according to the Navy guys some weeks in front of me, those AF kids who do try to use their heads in stand-up in T-1s are still being told they are wrong if they use common sense to easily solve the problem. They want it by the book, everytime, no exceptions, NO THINKING!!!
During primary, I had an O-5 IP with 20 years of experience give me multiple 5s on a RI flight b/c I threw out the book and used my head during the busiest part of the flight which allowed me to pull off what I had to do even though he didn't think (at first) that I could accomplish the instrucitons Corpus approach gave. I get the feeling had I done the same thing here I would have been thrown out of the program.
Here's the proof: In a stand-up, guys were given a Master Caution in the pattern at the 180 for a cabin overtemp annunciatior. The studs decided to extend their pattern some (not much, just enought to analyze the problem), then came around for a full stop, and emergency egressed the plane on the runway (meaning they freaked out a bit, problem wasn't that serious). Well, guess what, the IPs didn't agree with their decision to land. They wanted them to break out of the pattern and solve the problem in the air AS IS WRITTEN!!! Hello, anyone home??? The other Navy guy in my class and I were like: Just land, taxi clear (they would have known by now it wasn't too serous a problem and they would have the ability to taxi clear), and resolve the problem on the ground. But no no no, no thinking of any sort allowed apparently. I have had stories similar to shared w/ me by other guys ahead of me in the program.
Now, I will say that the AF is doing some things that I really like that the Navy didn't. The computer instruction for ground school is absolutely first rate, as are the civilians who do the classroom portions. The simulator instructors overall are far more patient and professional than the ones in Corpus; they take time to teach you and don't explode b/c you didn't do something perfectly on your first try. Also, since I haven't started flying the T-1 yet, I can't say what actually goes on in the air with respect to this.
I'm glad we have gotten the privilege to read the last few posts. Since they are largly from guys that have "been there", it certainly holds more weight then my long ago experiences. Most of all, the discourse has been reasonable. Jax observing that the AF does somethings better than the Navy would be quite true and it is worth noting. All told, I still think the Navy has a better program and hopfully anyone reading this thread will come to the same conclusion. Now, if we can just get the budget for some of the cool things the AF does...
Just out of curiosity, what does the very beginning of the AF pubs state? For example, at the beginning of every NAVAIR flight pub (NATOPS, OPNAV, NWP(s), etc), it specifically states that the included instructions are not a substitute for sound judgement. IE, use good headwork. A perfect example would be an engine failure on takeoff from a runway. NATOPS says, among other things, to establish safe single engine airspeed. But it's quite obvious to everyone that if you have the room, you set it down and stop.
Just wondering if the AF pubs have something along those lines. I'd be surprised if they don't...or maybe I wouldn't.
Just wondering if the AF pubs have something along those lines. I'd be surprised if they don't...or maybe I wouldn't.
T
TSPO
Guest
I never did defend the statement that somebody was failed for improperly crossing their T's. I said it "sounded" like a load. I also never said that I was flying with anyone. I'm still anxiously awaiting my start date, but I do work with fliers while I'm on casual and am in a good position to judge and defend their professionalism. I read alot of good posts on how things are done in this thread, and maybe the story about the T's isn't as far fetched as it seemed. Regardless, from my completely hypothetical and inexperienced perspective, it seems that the good outweighs the bad, and I'll stick with my preference for the Air Force style of training. I'll be sure to let you know as soon as that changes, whether it be brought about by experience or by something I read, although the likelihood of the latter happening is pretty slim.
Vijay: Wow, I got a good laugh out of that! Payne and Staut always come to mind when I have sims here (never had Jeter). Most of those guys would probably go insane if they saw how chill the guys here at Vance are, that and also that these guys actually TEACH us rather than just bashing us over the head every chance they get (ie, off airspeed by 2 kts). How's the 45C treating ya?
Gator: I think this is what you are refering too, it comes from the Dash-1, which is basically AF NATOPS. I'll let anyone reading this come to their own conclusions:
SOUND JUDGEMENT :
Instructions in this manual are for a pilot inexperienced in the operation of this aircraft. This manual provides the best possible operating instructions under most circumstances, but it is not a substitute for sound judgement. Multiple emergencies, adverse weather, terrain, ect., may require modification of the procedures.
PERMISSIBLE OPERATIONS :
The flight manual takes a "positive approach" and normally states only what you can do. Unusual operations or configurations are prohibited unless specifically covered herein. Clearance from the using command must be obtained before any questionable operation, which is not specifically permitted in this manual, is attempted.
Those are the 2nd and 3rd paragraphs of the Dash-1, and they are on the same page.
Gator: I think this is what you are refering too, it comes from the Dash-1, which is basically AF NATOPS. I'll let anyone reading this come to their own conclusions:
SOUND JUDGEMENT :
Instructions in this manual are for a pilot inexperienced in the operation of this aircraft. This manual provides the best possible operating instructions under most circumstances, but it is not a substitute for sound judgement. Multiple emergencies, adverse weather, terrain, ect., may require modification of the procedures.
PERMISSIBLE OPERATIONS :
The flight manual takes a "positive approach" and normally states only what you can do. Unusual operations or configurations are prohibited unless specifically covered herein. Clearance from the using command must be obtained before any questionable operation, which is not specifically permitted in this manual, is attempted.
Those are the 2nd and 3rd paragraphs of the Dash-1, and they are on the same page.
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