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What NFOs do..
- Thread starter taproot2779
- Start date
There has been a lot of NFO-loving going on recently! Bubba and T&B must be proud!
pdx
HSM Pilot
My onwing in primary was a P-3 pilot forced out because of bad timing issues. He personally admitted to "not being a top 10 %er," but claimed he had a solid career with good evals. Obviously I haven't seen his service record, and even if I had, I couldn't evaluate it.
Hasn't stopped my last 3 XO's, but who's counting.
Stubby
Ask the Chief
Health of P-3's
Well, currently there are 13 operational VP squadrons including one training squadron. These squadrons are equally divided among Kaneohe Bay Hawaii, Whidbey Island Washington, Brunswick Maine, and Jacksonville Florida. The training squadron is located at Jacksonville, and the base at Brunswick has been slated for closing... Brunswick squadrons are scheduled to move to Jacksonville. There are also two VPU (special projects) squadrons, one in Kaneohe and one in Brunswick (these are generally second tour commands for more senior crews), and two VQ squadrons (flying the EP-3) in Whidbey Island. There are a few other Navy commands that fly P-3's, but again are generally second tour commands.
P-3's do have their share of "problems" as a community. Because ASW (maritime patrol's primary mission) was seen as less important after the cold war ended, two previous airframe replacement/upgrades (the P-7 and the P-3 Update 4) did not receive funding. Now the current P-3 airframes are pushing their serviceable life spans and so flight hours are not as prolific. VP has had to continually "prove" that it had a mission.
Current deployments are six months long to Qatar, Japan, and Sicily with dozens of detachment sites around the world. Home cycles are 18 months long with a three month "surge" period on either side of deployment to augment deployed squadrons if needed. The flight hours and flight profiles of P-3's today are definitely less than they once were, no question. That is because the aircraft have been utilized beyond the originally defined serviceable life of the airframe.
The Lockheed P-3 Orion is scheduled to be replaced by the Boeing P-8 Multi-Mission Aircraft(MMA), which is derived from the existing 737 airframe. When MMA comes on line (sometime around 2013) there are going to be some very significant changes. The navy will probably go to two primary MMA bases, the location of which has not been decided... they may or may not be any of the existing bases. This may possibly mean less squadrons (and so less department heads, less commanding officers, etc.). Additionally, VP will be shifting from military maintenance to civilian contractor maintenance, which will mean smaller military commands. Even the definition of "deployment" is under review.
Let me say this. I came in the Navy at the very end of the Cold War. There were 26 VP squadrons (including two training squadrons), with 8 squadrons on deployment at any given time. The drawdown was painful, but we made it through. I did see some officers forced out during that time. However, the Navy is a little better about transition nowadays. We have several officers in the P-3 pipeline today that used to fly S-3's. This may be a little "hiccup" in their career, but I haven't heard of any of them being forced out.
So, back to your question; The state of the P-3 community? Well there is less deployment time, less ASW time, and less flight time. That makes it a challenge to keep qualified and proficient aircrews. Now that I've made it sound really bad, let me say this. P-3's are great duty. Travel is good, per diem is good, deployed quarters are good, all the VP bases are good. P-3's were always a versatile platform, but now have really proven themselves in many different missions not historically performed by VP.
P-3's will not be around in 20 years, but VP certainly will.
I'll let the officers offer opinion as to whether it is a good or bad career choice... but it's always been good to me.
http://www.boeing.com/defense-space/military/mma/index.html
Well, currently there are 13 operational VP squadrons including one training squadron. These squadrons are equally divided among Kaneohe Bay Hawaii, Whidbey Island Washington, Brunswick Maine, and Jacksonville Florida. The training squadron is located at Jacksonville, and the base at Brunswick has been slated for closing... Brunswick squadrons are scheduled to move to Jacksonville. There are also two VPU (special projects) squadrons, one in Kaneohe and one in Brunswick (these are generally second tour commands for more senior crews), and two VQ squadrons (flying the EP-3) in Whidbey Island. There are a few other Navy commands that fly P-3's, but again are generally second tour commands.
P-3's do have their share of "problems" as a community. Because ASW (maritime patrol's primary mission) was seen as less important after the cold war ended, two previous airframe replacement/upgrades (the P-7 and the P-3 Update 4) did not receive funding. Now the current P-3 airframes are pushing their serviceable life spans and so flight hours are not as prolific. VP has had to continually "prove" that it had a mission.
Current deployments are six months long to Qatar, Japan, and Sicily with dozens of detachment sites around the world. Home cycles are 18 months long with a three month "surge" period on either side of deployment to augment deployed squadrons if needed. The flight hours and flight profiles of P-3's today are definitely less than they once were, no question. That is because the aircraft have been utilized beyond the originally defined serviceable life of the airframe.
The Lockheed P-3 Orion is scheduled to be replaced by the Boeing P-8 Multi-Mission Aircraft(MMA), which is derived from the existing 737 airframe. When MMA comes on line (sometime around 2013) there are going to be some very significant changes. The navy will probably go to two primary MMA bases, the location of which has not been decided... they may or may not be any of the existing bases. This may possibly mean less squadrons (and so less department heads, less commanding officers, etc.). Additionally, VP will be shifting from military maintenance to civilian contractor maintenance, which will mean smaller military commands. Even the definition of "deployment" is under review.
Let me say this. I came in the Navy at the very end of the Cold War. There were 26 VP squadrons (including two training squadrons), with 8 squadrons on deployment at any given time. The drawdown was painful, but we made it through. I did see some officers forced out during that time. However, the Navy is a little better about transition nowadays. We have several officers in the P-3 pipeline today that used to fly S-3's. This may be a little "hiccup" in their career, but I haven't heard of any of them being forced out.
So, back to your question; The state of the P-3 community? Well there is less deployment time, less ASW time, and less flight time. That makes it a challenge to keep qualified and proficient aircrews. Now that I've made it sound really bad, let me say this. P-3's are great duty. Travel is good, per diem is good, deployed quarters are good, all the VP bases are good. P-3's were always a versatile platform, but now have really proven themselves in many different missions not historically performed by VP.
P-3's will not be around in 20 years, but VP certainly will.
I'll let the officers offer opinion as to whether it is a good or bad career choice... but it's always been good to me.
The Future of Maritime Patrol Aviation
http://www.boeing.com/defense-space/military/mma/index.html
Irrelevant, since I suspect none of them were junior enough to be subject to the recent round of DH screens. At any rate, your comments aren't very frank or helpful for a guy who is trying to get information about a platform. The fact is that DH screens, while not likely to be a permanent phenomenon, have disproportionately hit the VP community and have limited the upward mobility of lots of good officers. That said, it is an important factor in career decisions for prospective aviators.
Brett
A lot of those prior aircrew types might already have a lot of time in service to the point where they don't need to make thier officer time stretch 20 years to hit retirement. I only have 3 years enlisted myself so I need to find a community with good growth potential without having to lat transfer to some restricted line job. That's why I think VP sounds risky. It seems like Jets or Helos are the only for sure way to go in order to make rank and have a fulfilling career
And yours were?
Listen buddy, my only point was that if the guy is looking to put in 20 years, then he shouldn't worry too much about the P-3 aircraft holding him back since he'll be switching over to the P-8. I thought that was pretty damn relevant to the conversation.
As far as the DH screening goes, I can't speak to that...I'll have to take your word for it. But what I do know is that you can't pass judgment without knowing all the facts. Some P-3 bubbas might have been passed over, but I have a hard time believing that the only reason is because they are from the VP world. Chances are that some other areas may not have been as competitive as other applicants were.
Calm down. Its just the internet.
@usnmerritt:
Brett's point was that the VP community is even MORE competitive in the very recent past, even if you were a "good" officer. DH screening rates were around 40-50% (rough number, can't remember the actual percentage, however webmaster may be by here to give his first hand info). Compare that to a roughly 70% DH screen rate for other communities. It probably won't stay that way, as I'm sure you are aware, everything is cyclical, but that's what has happened recently.
Brett's point was that the VP community is even MORE competitive in the very recent past, even if you were a "good" officer. DH screening rates were around 40-50% (rough number, can't remember the actual percentage, however webmaster may be by here to give his first hand info). Compare that to a roughly 70% DH screen rate for other communities. It probably won't stay that way, as I'm sure you are aware, everything is cyclical, but that's what has happened recently.
And yours were?
Listen buddy, my only point was that if the guy is looking to put in 20 years, then he shouldn't worry too much about the P-3 aircraft holding him back since he'll be switching over to the P-8. I thought that was pretty damn relevant to the conversation.
As far as the DH screening goes, I can't speak to that...I'll have to take your word for it. But what I do know is that you can't pass judgment without knowing all the facts. Some P-3 bubbas might have been passed over, but I have a hard time believing that the only reason is because they are from the VP world. Chances are that some other areas may not have been as competitive as other applicants were.
Calm down. Its just the internet.
To pile on to what Gator said (which was exactly my original point), it looks like you need to educate yourself about your own community. P-3 vs. P-8, not an issue for the future of the community - good, great, grand. As for the original poster's question about promotion issues (I.E. low DH screen rates in VP), you just gaff it off because you don't know about it or (apparently) don't understand it - that is where you do the original poster a disservice. DH screen issues should probably not, in and of themselves, cause SNAs to shy away from VP if that is what they're interested in, but they should also be making their decisions armed with all the facts. Wouldn't you agree?
Brett
Some P-3 bubbas might have been passed over, but I have a hard time believing that the only reason is because they are from the VP world. Chances are that some other areas may not have been as competitive as other applicants were.
I think your best option here is to concede that you don’t know what you’re talking about.
Hell, I'll concede all day. I don't mind learning something new, as you guys seemed to have put forth.
But from guys who have made their DH screen, it seems like VP was putting people through for a while there. Apparently I'm wrong....or they're wrong.
Now, back to twiddling.
But from guys who have made their DH screen, it seems like VP was putting people through for a while there. Apparently I'm wrong....or they're wrong.
Now, back to twiddling.