Who Drives an Aircraft Carrier?

[HAL Pilot]

Wrong again. CAG fights the air wing but the CVN CO fights the boat. It’s a team effort and while essentially equal, the CO usually has slightly more say because he owns the boat. The CO decides when and if the CAG can fly. If the CO decides it is unsafe to fly there is no flying. The CVN generates the air plan (with CAG input) not the other way around. During my tour in a CVN, a saw more than a couple of times when the CO told the CAG sorry, no flying. This could be for a number of reasons - weather (99% of time CAG concurred), other ship evolutions, maintenance, required PIM, etc. Driving a carrier (OOD) is just a small part of the job.

Plus the SWO nukes rarely if ever stand bridge watch in a CVN. I never once saw one do it during my CVN tour. They spent their lives in the reactor spaces. There are non-nuke SWO on a CVN too and they are more likely to stand bridge watch but my experience was it was mostly aviators assigned to the ship’s company. In fact, the OOD and the rest of the bridge watch on my CVN for evolutions such as sea & anchor, GQ and UNREP was full of aviators with no SWOs. it was the same on the CVNs my brother and friends served in.

As you have shown many time, your self taught book knowledge of the USN is not very accurate nor does it reflect real life.

 

[Max the Mad Russian]

is not very accurate nor does it reflect real life

Isn't is a wonder, eh?

Plus the SWO nukes rarely if ever stand bridge watch in a CVN

This Shoe nuke diasgrees

 

[HAL Pilot]

This Shoe nuke diasgrees

Of course he does.... But he proposes a pipeline that currently does not exist. But even then, his pipeline would not give a perspective CVN CO the necessary experience to really understand aviation. You can’t learn and really understand aviation from outside a cockpit. But being a non-aviator he doesn’t understand this.

Once again your reading is getting in the way of the real world. Don’t believe everything you read. The “good idea fairies” love writing books and articles, many of which are really crap ideas.

As a VP guy who earned a SWO pin with multiple squadron tours and a CVN tour where I stood bridge watch to include being the Sea & Anchor, GQ and UNREP OOD; I did not have the carrier aviation knowledge or experience to be a CVN CO. A SWO definitely doesn’t and can’t gain it without being in a carrier aircraft cockpit for many years.

Just because someone can do something it doesn’t mean he should do it. A SWO could command a CVN just like an Aviator could command a CG. But could doesn’t mean should and neither would be the best man for the job.

 

[Max the Mad Russian]

A SWO definitely doesn’t and can’t gain it without being in a carrier aircraft cockpit for many years.

Concur, but only for a ways USN does things. USN has the greatest and most impressive carrier fleet for almost a century, but definitely not the only one. Naturally, the USN carrier way is a means to obtain well oiled and smooth power-projecting Alfa Strike practice, all the other is supportive to that. And while Alfa Strike is quite effective show and usage of force, it had always been something against weak enemy. Brits, who not only live much closer to Evil Empire, but at least once had a carriers placed in contest with almost equal force, 1982, allows their carrier COs to be shipdrivers. It is of course not relevant to USN, but I have heard many times that it is not the carrier leadership that is the core thing in USN carrier effectiveness but solid carrier CPO corps produsing rare breed of "carrier mustangs" LDOs/CWOs instead. Is that wrong too?

 

[Max the Mad Russian]

But could doesn’t mean should and neither would be the best man for the job.

Here fully agree. You are right with that the real life neither could nor should be totally described in books, and such intricate and elusive concepts as carrier affairs just cannot be obtained from texts. To a degree, for a person in charge of so complicate structure as modern aircraft carrier it is not enough to have all needed aviation, nautical, shiphandling and leadership experience even in amalgamation of some kind: s/he needs to have a team. I honestly praise the USN for a habit and skill to create such a team for him/her and fasilitate the process by both senior and subordinate people efforts. Your nation had been born as a crowd of individualists but along the historical ways somehow obtained the wisdom of building the teams. Something we till today completely miss, creating vertically rigid crews instead of teams.

 

[exNavyOffRec]

Pretty sure that being SWO nuke, this officer had a lot of OOD time on a carrier long before RO tenure and had been in O-5 CruDes command shoes. Of course I'm far from argue with your experience but it seems that after 1983 when CAG surfaced to authority level equal to carrier 9222, it is not carrier CO who really "fights the boat" but CAG

No, SWO-N do not stand OOD on CVN's, back when SWO-N's when right to a carrier they would stand OOD on a CVN until they rec'd their SWO pin then not anymore as that stopped in mid 90's.

 

[hscs]

To set the record straight on a number of things -

1) if you don’t do a DH/OIC and / or CO/XO of an airwing squadron- you are not eligible for the AVN track - reference- AMCSB precept.

2) This is really just a move by the SWOs to expand their chances at command. The irony is that SWOs hate supporting the CVN 1110 billets. PERS-41 will send CVNs conventional 1110s whose records look different for some reason and then gap billets completely if there is not a deployment in the works for that officer's career. Supporting the Almighty Aegis god takes precedence.

3) The RO does not see the light of day and has little to no interaction with the rest of 'interested parties' onboard the CVNs. The RO has very little understanding of CVN flight ops - from set up, course, EPs, tanking (as mentioned by in an earlier post). His / her previous tour as an RO would invite mission risk (heavy IMHO) toward an XO who would hamper CVW ops over taking care of reactor dept.

4) Even the senior SWOs (DH types) after ~ 2 years of standing bridge watch struggle when things start to go wrong in the air (e.g EP or even the fact that they need to be ready for a recovery after an alert launch). An XO who came thru the RO pipeline would be even worse - as he / she has never been on the bridge during flight ops (other than to get paperwork signed by the CO). Experience gained in LCS / DDG command does not translate into required experience for CDO u/w decision making during flight ops.

5) Every RO that I have seen has gone on to major SWO command, so I am not sure why the push, unless it is for more flag opportunity somehow.

6) Corollary to last sentence of point #4 - you can't compare LHA / LHD with CVN flight ops. The SWOs get plenty of 'unrestricted aviation' experience with helo ops on their DDG / LCS tours. LHA/Ds just give them more spots to launch. Yes, I know they have F35s/Harriers, but the typical prevalence of assets are helicopters.

7) And to answer the original question - who drives the ship - yes, a PACT sailor or a BM actually steers the ship. The OODs are a mash up of Admin LDOs, Engineering LDOs, IP officers, 1-3 actual 1110s, and even the junior JAG, most of whom never set a foot inside SWOS.

If the SWOs want this - then they need to start by fully manning the CVN bridge and CDC teams. And they can authorize LDOs to wear a SWO pin - I have seen plenty of LDOs who were deserving of a SWO pin for all of their time leading sailors and serving as an OOD of our capital ships.

 

[HAL Pilot]

@hscs said it much better than I did.

question on #7. Are there not disassociated tour aviators standing bridge watch and OOD anymore. It used to be them making up the majority of the bridge watch standers. ANAV was a plumb VP billet for one of the chosen.

 

[jollygreen07]

Yes, flight suits stand OOD. I think ANAV, OPS Admin and A-Strike are expected to at a minimum. An occasional shooter, air ops, or TAO may also get the qual.

 

[taxi1]

Whoever is driving the Airfract Carrier should not do this.

A bulk carrier owned by Nagashiki and chartered by Mitsui OSK ran aground on a reef in Mauritius in July and began leaking oil, causing an ecological disaster in the pristine seas around the Indian Ocean island.

The crew of the MV Wakashio, a nearly 300-metre Cape Size bulker used for carrying iron ore, changed direction to sail close enough to Mauritius to get cell phone coverage...

 

[hscs]

@hscs said it much better than I did.

question on #7. Are there not disassociated tour aviators standing bridge watch and OOD anymore. It used to be them making up the majority of the bridge watch standers. ANAV was a plumb VP billet for one of the chosen.

Yep - left that out - my bad. Yes, ANAV, AOPS (AKA OPS Admin), and sometimes A-Strike. ANAV is the only one who goes to SWOS.

 

[exNavyOffRec]

To set the record straight on a number of things -

1) if you don’t do a DH/OIC and / or CO/XO of an airwing squadron- you are not eligible for the AVN track - reference- AMCSB precept.

2) This is really just a move by the SWOs to expand their chances at command. The irony is that SWOs hate supporting the CVN 1110 billets. PERS-41 will send CVNs conventional 1110s whose records look different for some reason and then gap billets completely if there is not a deployment in the works for that officer's career. Supporting the Almighty Aegis god takes precedence.

3) The RO does not see the light of day and has little to no interaction with the rest of 'interested parties' onboard the CVNs. The RO has very little understanding of CVN flight ops - from set up, course, EPs, tanking (as mentioned by in an earlier post). His / her previous tour as an RO would invite mission risk (heavy IMHO) toward an XO who would hamper CVW ops over taking care of reactor dept.

4) Even the senior SWOs (DH types) after ~ 2 years of standing bridge watch struggle when things start to go wrong in the air (e.g EP or even the fact that they need to be ready for a recovery after an alert launch). An XO who came thru the RO pipeline would be even worse - as he / she has never been on the bridge during flight ops (other than to get paperwork signed by the CO). Experience gained in LCS / DDG command does not translate into required experience for CDO u/w decision making during flight ops.

5) Every RO that I have seen has gone on to major SWO command, so I am not sure why the push, unless it is for more flag opportunity somehow.

6) Corollary to last sentence of point #4 - you can't compare LHA / LHD with CVN flight ops. The SWOs get plenty of 'unrestricted aviation' experience with helo ops on their DDG / LCS tours. LHA/Ds just give them more spots to launch. Yes, I know they have F35s/Harriers, but the typical prevalence of assets are helicopters.

7) And to answer the original question - who drives the ship - yes, a PACT sailor or a BM actually steers the ship. The OODs are a mash up of Admin LDOs, Engineering LDOs, IP officers, 1-3 actual 1110s, and even the junior JAG, most of whom never set a foot inside SWOS.

If the SWOs want this - then they need to start by fully manning the CVN bridge and CDC teams. And they can authorize LDOs to wear a SWO pin - I have seen plenty of LDOs who were deserving of a SWO pin for all of their time leading sailors and serving as an OOD of our capital ships.

On 2) What I found with the 1110's I knew on the CVN's was that most of them were on the track to being a civilian, on my last sea tour I knew the CHENG from a previous tour and asked him what the benefit was of a 1110 going to a CVN and he said none, it is essentially a career killer and often the 1110's that go to CVN's were sent there so those that had good records could go to career enhancing billets.

3) I don't know if I understand this, what do you mean by "no interaction with the rest of interested parties" the RO would be at DH meetings, if you are speaking in regards to flight ops that I do understand what you are saying.

7) don't forget nuke LDO's and nuke CWO's on their first sea tour since commissioning so they can earn their SWO pin, I can't tell you how thrilled most are to do this. I had a friend who was a nuke LDO and we ended up being stationed together at sea after he was commissioned, the CO was so impressed by him that every time we were going in/out of port or an unrep he wanted him on the bridge.

 

[JWL]

Someone mentioned that an aviator earned a SWO pin during a disassociated tour. So, is this a sear tour when an aviator does not fly? If so, why don't they fly? If they don't fly, does it not make sense to learn to drive a ship during this tour and earn that SWO pin if they might command a ship someday? Or, would the SWO community be upset about that?

Thanks.

 

[exNavyOffRec]

Isn't is a wonder, eh?




This Shoe nuke diasgrees

The author believes that SWO-N should spent more time on a CVN doing nuke stuff to be as proficient as sub nukes, but he is missing some key items when he compares a SWO-N to sub nukes. A sub nuke doesn't just do nuke stuff a sub officer also does navigation, weapons, has to know how to drive the sub, etc...... every aspect of a sub officers career is right there, a SWO-N doesn't have that luxury. The career path that he describes as to what he feels it should be is pretty much the career path of a nuke LDO/CWO.

 

[Brett327]

Someone mentioned that an aviator earned a SWO pin during a disassociated tour. So, is this a sear tour when an aviator does not fly? If so, why don't they fly? If they don't fly, does it not make sense to learn to drive a ship during this tour and earn that SWO pin if they might command a ship someday? Or, would the SWO community be upset about that?

Thanks.

It’s complicated. Most guys on disassociated tours do not fly. The ship’s CO, XO and other ship’s company aviators do fly on occasion, but it’s more of a novelty for them, as they probably aren’t fully qualified and certainly not tactically proficient. Even a SWO CSG Admiral will fly with all the squadrons in the CVW that aren’t single seat. Think of it as an opportunity for them to get a better understanding of what their CVW is capable of, while connecting with the squadrons and showing an interest in what they all do.