The end of NATO?

[Spekkio]

You’re telling me there’s no policy anywhere that Hegseth and others could possibly have violated by using Signal to discuss detailed war plans, in advance of the operation?

You know better than that.

Well, the only policies that Hegseth has to adhere to are federal statute or executive orders. And from what I can find, classification guidance is signed by appointed cabinet members and their subordinates.

That's why I asked a somewhat stupid but also legitimate question: what lawfully stops SECDEF from reading a highly classified OPLAN to us in a 7pm press conference? No one has done it, but what if they did? How do we hold them accountable?

I said several pages ago that unfortunately, I suspect that the practice of discussing sensitive information is normal among high-level cabinet officials and there won't be any institutional changes to correct this phenomenon. I doubt that the DOJ will be ordered to conduct a thorough investigation and the current GOP controlled Congress is not going to propose revised statute to hold cabinet members accountable for divulging secrets.

I also said that in the position of President, I would fire everyone except Waltz for their thought-processes in making policy recommendations. But I also wouldn't have appointed such an amateur team to my administration.

So again...one can do things that are morally shitty but legally kosher.

 

[sevenhelmet]

Well, the only policies that Hegseth has to adhere to are federal statute or executive orders. And from what I can find, classification guidance is signed by appointed cabinet members and their subordinates.

That's why I asked a somewhat stupid but also legitimate question: what lawfully stops SECDEF from reading a highly classified OPLAN to us in a 7pm press conference? No one has done it, but what if they did? How do we hold them accountable?

I said several pages ago that unfortunately, I suspect that the practice of discussing sensitive information is normal among high-level cabinet officials and there won't be any institutional changes to correct this phenomenon. I doubt that the DOJ will be ordered to conduct a thorough investigation and the current GOP controlled Congress is not going to propose revised statute to hold cabinet members accountable for divulging secrets.

I also said that in the position of President, I would fire everyone except Waltz for their thought-processes in making policy recommendations. But I also wouldn't have appointed such an amateur team to my administration.

So again...one can do things that are morally shitty but legally kosher.

That’s awfully presumptive- do you have solid knowledge that SECDEF did not sign an SF-312 or similar non-disclosure that covers those war plans?

ETA: I have zero doubt that if someone in his unit had done this during his time in service, Mr. Hegseth would not have stopped short of calling for their head and then bitching about it in his memoir.

 

[Spekkio]

I can't speak to what the SECDEF does or does not sign. It's also not particularly relevant.

What I'm asking about is that the SECDEF has declassification authority. He could have read a document with classification / SCI markings and decided that he was going to release the information.

So my question is: what is the actual process for this? Does the SECDEF get to unilaterally decide "yeah, I'm going to release this" or is there Congressional / POTUS oversight?

If I were President and wanted to nail a rogue SECDEF to the cross for reading a TS / SCI oplan to the press, what can I do besides fire him?

I agree this isn't relevant from a moral standard. But from a legal accountability standard, let's say Trump is pissed about the whole ordeal as a thought experiment...what can he actually do about it? My understanding of everything (so far) is not a damned thing.

 

[sevenhelmet]

I can't speak to what the SECDEF does or does not sign. It's also not particularly relevant.

It is 100% relevant. Violation of the terms on those forms can carry criminal penalties to include jail time. I would expect you to know that, given your professional history.

If I were President and wanted to nail a rogue SECDEF to the cross for reading a TS / SCI warplan, what can I do besides fire him?

See above.

I have had enough of the double standards. Either we care about security, or we don’t. Clearly, you don’t, at least when it’s your guy in office. I’m sure you would make the same rationalizations under an administration of a different party.

I’ll point this out because it clearly needs to be said- damage to national security can easily go beyond the operation.

I truly hope none of you ever get killed so someone can get a fist-bump emoji in an app. Given our apparent stance towards security (apparently it’s now just a moral issue… those forms you signed are irrelevant), that is a real possibility.

 

[Spekkio]

There's no double standard.

In military land, signing an agreement carries the effect of a lawful order. Not so in civlant or civpac.

But anyway, you're dodging my question...

Thought experiment: I'm President and you're my AG. I want to hold Hegseth accountable to the maximum extent of the law for disclosing classified information. I'm pissed and throw a tantrum. I slam some binders and yell into a phone with my fat hands.

I want him prosecuted thrown in jail. Tell me how I can do it?

I get that you're not a lawyer and probably can't be bothered to answer that question. But in my cursory lookup in the interwebs, I can't find a definitive path to doing so. Citing CENTCOM regulations isn't going to cut the mustard.

The most Trump can do is fire him.

That's my point. It's one thing to grandstand about 'oh my god, so-and-so should go to prison forever for doing this thing I don't like.' It's another to critically analyze a path of what, if any, statutes the person violated and how you hold them to account for it.

 

[JTS11]

As Spekkio is fumbling over himself, go ahead and read this post and the old NR article about Hillary's email server...Bottom line is that of course the DOJ is not going to do shit. But, any argument that there's no legal basis to do anything is not entirely correct. It will be possibly shame/embarrassment/political pressure that brings this to a head, but I'm not holding my breath.

https://x.com/KenDilanianNBC/status/1904908199989293168

 

[Waveoff]

And please, spare me the moral outrage police comments on all things "Trump is Bad" without at least considering missteps of previous administrations. Fair?

Like what “SWO6” said in his Reddit post, that’s ignoring the fallacy of Tu quoque, where someone deflects criticism by accusing the accuser of similar actions or hypocrisy, rather than addressing the original issue.

What’s wrong is wrong because it’s wrong.

 

[Randy Daytona]

Jesus Christ this thread is a shit show. In the past three pages alone, I've seen:

1.) Four separate definitions of national security ("normal damage to national security"?? What in the goddamn double deep-fried fuck does that mean?)

2.) Gymnastics of a staggering degree to hand-wave a clear violation that would have easily had any of us in deep shit on active-duty with zero argument from anyone over the significance.

3.) Inane comparison of the Yemen war plans being sent via Signal to a.) the B2 spirit's RCS and b.) A CO violating shipboard liberty policy. WTF, again. You sure you don't want to set the guardrails any wider than that?

4.) The naive assumption that the Houthis were the only ones that could possibly benefit from advance knowledge of the raid. Fortunately, others have pointed out the clear fallacy of that argument.


You all need to check your bearings. We used to give a shit about security, and phrases like OPSEC and "loose lips sink ships" meant something. Now, it seems to have gone fucking partisan like every other goddamned thing. We all know SECDEF isn't getting fired over this. But don't minimize and be an apologist for what was not only remarkably bad judgment, but an explicit and willful violation of DoD security policy.

I find it odd that in 13 pages of comments, everyone is focused on the security embarrassments to President Trump (as if this would even remotely bother someone who has survived 2 assassination attempts in the last 9 months) and few are discussing the policy differences brought up, in particular VP Vance’s hostility to Europe.

I still say more people are focused on March Madness and Baseball’s opening day tomorrow.

 

[Spekkio]

I find it odd that in 13 pages of comments, everyone is focused on the security embarrassments to President Trump (as if this would even remotely bother someone who has survived 2 assassination attempts in the last 9 months) and few are discussing the policy differences brought up, in particular VP Vance’s hostility to Europe.

I still say more people are focused on March Madness and Baseball’s opening day tomorrow.

I mean, I mentioned that.

Michael Waltz is the adult discussing international commerce and economic impacts. JD Vance and Hegseth go back and forth about how to best advertize the size of America's schlong while trying to embarass a no-longer relevant politician that no one cares about anymore.

Trump's paranoia toward Biden's administration and everything Biden touched as a conspiracy against him is clearly rubbing off here. We replaced one POTUS with dementia with another. Except now we have a bunch of inexperienced 40-something year olds running the show who have no idea how to handle the situation.

Seriously, the VP doesn't feel empowered to express his risk and policy concerns to the President without the consensus of a gaggle of cabinet appointees? He's elected, the only people who can fire him are Congress. Grow a fucking spine.

 

[taxi1]

The most Trump can do is fire him.

Wait until he is on an overseas trip, cancel his travel, and put a $1 limit on his gov credit card. Then when he tries to swipe his card at the hotel to pay...

Had it happen to a friend.

 

[sevenhelmet]

There's no double standard.

In military land, signing an agreement carries the effect of a lawful order. Not so in civlant or civpac.

But anyway, you're dodging my question...

Thought experiment: I'm President and you're my AG. I want to hold Hegseth accountable to the maximum extent of the law for disclosing classified information. I'm pissed and throw a tantrum. I slam some binders and yell into a phone with my fat hands.

I want him prosecuted thrown in jail. Tell me how I can do it?

I get that you're not a lawyer and probably can't be bothered to answer that question. But in my cursory lookup in the interwebs, I can't find a definitive path to doing so. Citing CENTCOM regulations isn't going to cut the mustard.

The most Trump can do is fire him.

I am not a lawyer, and also not dodging your question. I have stated that I don’t believe Hegseth (or anyone else) will be fired, because guess what, it’s 20-fucking-25, where nothing matters except which party you swore loyalty to. The legality of actions is actually irrelevant under this administration, which may be the most fucked up part of where we are as a country.

My argument is against the rampant rationalization that seeks to minimize Hegseth and Waltz’s playing fast and loose with critical operational details that could easily have put warfighters in danger, caused an operation to fail, were definitely bad for good order and discipline, and have embarrassed our country yet again.

I was taught certain things mattered. Apparently nowadays, they don’t. Guess it’s good I am retiring soon- I’m obviously a dinosaur who believes in outdated concepts.

 

[Spekkio]

Wait until he is on an overseas trip, cancel his travel, and put a $1 limit on his gov credit card. Then when he tries to swipe his card at the hotel to pay...

Had it happen to a friend.

I don't know what emoji to respond to this... but I'm in agreeance.

 

[Spekkio]

I am not a lawyer, and also not dodging your question. I have stated that I don’t believe Hegseth (or anyone else) will be fired, because guess what, it’s 20-fucking-25, where nothing matters except which party you swore loyalty to. The legality of actions is actually irrelevant under this administration, which may be the most fucked up part of where we are as a country.

My argument is against the rampant rationalization that seeks to minimize Hegseth and Waltz’s playing fast and loose with critical operational details that could easily have put warfighters in danger, caused an operation to fail, were definitely bad for good order and discipline, and have embarrassed our country yet again.

I was taught certain things mattered. Apparently nowadays, they don’t. Guess it’s good I am retiring soon- I’m obviously a dinosaur who believes in outdated concepts.

Personally, I try not to get overly emotional and try to reason through these things with existing beaurocratic processes.

That was the nature of my question. I'm willing to be convinced that Hegseth committed some egregious legal violation. But best I can surmise is that he's just an idiot... and we can't jail idiots for being retarded. Unfortunately, no journalist will conduct any rigorous analysis on the topic in twenty fucking twenty five because "OMFG WARPLANS" sells.

And, well, if someone who works for you is retarded, you fire them. Unfortunately, Trump hired Hegseth knowing he was retarded and there's a political cost to firing a cabinet appointee so quickly.... so he's going to stick with him.

(I apologize to the Gen-Z-ers reading my post who think using the R-word is as bad as a racial slur when referring to people who are of normal intelligence yet make bone-headed decisions, but not really sorry)

 

[sevenhelmet]

Personally, I try not to get overly emotional and try to reason through these things with existing beaurocratic processes.

That was the nature of my question. I'm willing to be convinced that Hegseth committed some egregious legal violation. But best I can surmise is that he's just an idiot... and we can't jail idiots for being retarded.

And, well, if someone who works for you is retarded, you fire them. Unfortunately, Trump hired Hegseth knowing he was retarded and there's a political cost to firing a cabinet appointee so quickly.... so he's going to stick with him.

It pisses me off. I won’t pretend anything else, nor will I apologize for it. I’m sick of seeing administration after administration fuck things up, and each one worse than the last, while Americans rationalize away the outcomes. We need to stop apologizing for these asshats.

My prediction on outcomes from this is in line with yours.

 

[Spekkio]

Cheers! 🍻