12 Dead, 31 Wounded @ FT HOOD

[Brett327]

Even the Jarheads don't walk around strapped when home, and they're the most gun loving bunch of doods this side of the nuthouse. We could play shoulda woulda coulda all day, but this guy was the classic sleeper, and it sounds like the first responder was there within a minute and stopped what might have been way bigger (i know I know, the cops can be there in a minute when you've got seconds).

That being said, I'm not sure how I feel about your statement, Brett. If they're allowed to own a handgun outside the fence, and can carry it concealed, and we already trust them with bombs, guns, crypto, etc on deployment in way more stressful situations, what would be different about letting the guys who want to carry a handgun on base have at it?

The military will learn something from this. I highly doubt that lesson will be to allow concealed carry on bases, but you never know.

The circumstances when we entrust them to handle weapons are very controlled. The only folks on a ship or squadron who carry sidearms do so with lots of extra training and with a specific purpose (I.E. security forces). We trust our troops with lots of things, but you do so with a calculated risk based on the benefits vs. the potential risks. Arming everyone on base on the off-hand chance that a freak criminal act will be stopped doesn't meet that threshold in my view. The potential for abuse is too great and the possibility of benefit too small.

Brett

 

[Bevo16]

The potential for abuse is too great and the possibility of benefit too small.

Brett

Now be a good hinge and post a power point slide with appropriate RAC codes. :icon_tong

 

[scoolbubba]

The circumstances when we entrust them to handle weapons are very controlled. The only folks on a ship or squadron who carry sidearms do so with lots of extra training and with a specific purpose (I.E. security forces). We trust our troops with lots of things, but you do so with a calculated risk based on the benefits vs. the potential risks. Arming everyone on base on the off-hand chance that a freak criminal act will be stopped doesn't meet that threshold in my view. The potential for abuse is too great and the possibility of benefit too small.

Brett

I agree, and I don't think the solution is arming everyone, either. Allowing those with CCW permits to carry at their place of work wouldn't seem to be an unreasonable compromise. I'm sure with about 75 billion dollars, someone somewhere could come up with an NKO CBT to click through to "train" those who want to carry on base in the rules/regs and standards. :icon_tong

 

[Cleonard19]

Was Sgt. Munley a civilian contract police officer?

Don't know, don't care. I was more referring to the contracted out police force here on base. I hate those fuckers. They have less common sense than a burnt piece of toast, and they're all either too old, or too fat to actually do their jobs if the need arose. I've accidentally been through the gate with a females Mil-ID, and the guy didn't even notice. That makes me feel SO protected.

In general, I have a distaste for the whole contracting thing in general. "Lets make our forces smaller so the numbers look better on the budgets that congress sees, but then lets pay civilians three times as much to do the same job, which ultimately ends up being more expensive than manning those billets with enlisted sailors, even once you combine their healthcare and all that in with it.

 

[scoolbubba]

Most of the contract guys here are retired MAs.

 

[Flash]

He needs to say it. In public. For the record ...

Funny, I thought that a common criticism of the President was that he was all words and little action, now you want the opposite? What happened to actions speaking louder than words.

This is the ONLY WAY ... for me ... that Muslims in the USA can 'atone' for 9/11 and/or 'prove' their pride in US citizenship and commitment to the greatest country this sorry ol' planet has EVER produced....Emulate these guys ... the 442nd Regimental Combat Team....AMERICA ... LOVE IT OR LEAVE IT ... ????

If you don't 'like' my sentiment -- FUCK YOU

The thousands of Americans who happen to be Muslims or of Arab descent that serve and fight for this country aren't good enough for you? Why should they have to prove anything to you anyways? They prove themselves to those who serve alongside them everyday, they are the ones that matter.

I'd rather have a President that when tasked with a challenging decision, makes a damned decision, whether it be right or wrong, and go with it until its CLEAR that another course of action is more appropriate.

You can't be serious, that is so fucking stupid it isn't even funny. Act before thinking? Wait 'til you have to deal with sailor Schmucketelli, the one of many who acted before he thought, you might not find that kind of trait so admirable after all.

 

[C420sailor]

I agree, and I don't think the solution is arming everyone, either. Allowing those with CCW permits to carry at their place of work wouldn't seem to be an unreasonable compromise. I'm sure with about 75 billion dollars, someone somewhere could come up with an NKO CBT to click through to "train" those who want to carry on base in the rules/regs and standards. :icon_tong

Some sort of Federal/Military CCW that is more than just a pulse check and actually includes good training would probably be the ticket.

 

[Bevo16]

The number of people who are allowed to carry weapons on base is pretty large. Gate guards, NCIS, IG, reservists who work in law enforcement, base security, and I am sure there are others.

There have been times where I have had appointments in downtown Memphis that I had to go to directly from work. Downtown Memphis is not someplace that you want to go to unarmed. There are areas that you have to go through that make Detroit look like a vacation spot. It would be nice to be able to make those appointments without having to make a decision between going to bad area of town unarmed, or break rules on base.

 

[Brett327]

The number of people who are allowed to carry weapons on base is pretty large. Gate guards, NCIS, IG, reservists who work in law enforcement, base security, and I am sure there are others.

That's still a tiny minority. I would estimate <5%.

Brett

 

[Cleonard19]

You can't be serious, that is so fucking stupid it isn't even funny. Act before thinking? Wait 'til you have to deal with sailor Schmucketelli, the one of many who acted before he thought, you might not find that kind of trait so admirable after all.

No sir, thats not what I'm saying, nor is it what I implied. I'm not by any means advocating acting before thinking. What I'm criticizing is his prolonged thinking, with no apparent progress on the situation. There comes a point, where you either have to say yes, or say no. And I'm not saying he needs to say yes and here's the number and the time. I'm saying he either needs to say that its A) Not going to happen, or B) I agree with sending more troops and the next step is for me to sit down with my senior advisors/ the joint chiefs and making an informed decision on how many of what type to send, and when we can expect them to deploy.

Although in one sense, his non decision on the whole troop thing has the equivalent effect of saying no, just without the backlash.

 

[Rocketman]

I know that hindsight is 20/20, but does anyone here think that the shooter could have been neutralized sooner (or the attack averted altogether) if military personnel were authorized to carry firearms on base?

I know I'm opening a can of worms here, but I'd like to hear your opinions.

I wondered about that too. I'm not sure if it's a good idea to discuss in detail but I can say that I felt very safe when I visited Camp Barrett for warrior day and TBS graduation back in October. To Brett's point, the kids I saw walking around with locked and loaded M4's weren't airman Schmuckatellis but they weren't ninja's either. Looked like plain old MP LCpl's to me. More people walking around base with loaded weapons isn't PC but it may be what has to happen.

I don't know that anyone could have done a better job than Officer Munley but if it could have been done even a few minutes faster that might have saved another life or two.

 

[PropAddict]

Trust me, nobody wants a bunch of airman Schmuckatellis walking around with pistols. Horrible idea.

Brett

And why is that the standard? Why are we always bringing this to lowest common denominator, vice the other 93% who would have no issue with it?

Fine, Seaman X is probably too immature. Let's say E-7 and above are allowed, with appropriate licensure and training. Restricting privileges by rank would not be without precedent at all. If there are any instances of abuse of the rule, hammer that individual and make him an example. Then crush any subsequent offenders.

The gov't. licenses me and trusts me to carry a gun outside the gate, why not inside? As has been shown in multiple breaches this week, security inside the fence is really no better than outside it. Why should Bob who works in a cubicle farm be allowed to carry at work, while I can't?

 

[Brett327]

I wondered about that too. I'm not sure if it's a good idea to discuss in detail but I can say that I felt very safe when I visited Camp Barrett for warrior day and TBS graduation back in October. To Brett's point, the kids I saw walking around with locked and loaded M4's weren't airman Schmuckatellis but they weren't ninja's either. Looked like plain old MP LCpl's to me. More people walking around base with loaded weapons isn't PC but it may be what has to happen.

I don't know that anyone could have done a better job than Officer Munley but if it could have been done even a few minutes faster that might have saved another life or two.

Right, they're MPs, I.E. extra training and specific purpose for carrying - not what we're talking about. You say "but it may have to happen" like there's some kind of imperative for this. What happened yesterday was a freak occurrance. Nobody is going to make any significant changes in policy based on this. When it becomes an everyday thing, then we'll talk about arming everyone on base.

Brett

 

[Flash]

No sir, thats not what I'm saying, nor is it what I implied. I'm not by any means advocating acting before thinking. What I'm criticizing is his prolonged thinking, with no apparent progress on the situation.....Although in one sense, his non decision on the whole troop thing has the equivalent effect of saying no, just without the backlash.

Thank you for clearing that up. Keeping it short for this thread, the time that it is taking the Request for Forces for more troops in Afghanistan is not very unusual nor unprecedented. The RFF process is specifically set up to take into account all aspects of a request, including political ones when it gets to the top. The supposed 'non-decision' is actually the process working as it should. The fact that it is under such public scrutiny is the unusual part.

 

[Cleonard19]

I wondered about that too. I'm not sure if it's a good idea to discuss in detail but I can say that I felt very safe when I visited Camp Barrett for warrior day and TBS graduation back in October. To Brett's point, the kids I saw walking around with locked and loaded M4's weren't airman Schmuckatellis but they weren't ninja's either. Looked like plain old MP LCpl's to me. More people walking around base with loaded weapons isn't PC but it may be what has to happen.

I don't know that anyone could have done a better job than Officer Munley but if it could have been done even a few minutes faster that might have saved another life or two.

She did a fine job, thats for sure.

That said, I don't know how many of you are at command with armed sentries walking around, but at prototype you an't go anywhere without there being an armed MAA in sight. That plus the two guard towers, and the posts on the perimeter, etc. At first, coming from Power School where the "sentries" were A school graduates waiting for power school to class up, all the MAA's always walking around with loaded weapons, it just becomes a fact of life.

At first, there will definitely need to be some adjustment in the mindsets of the personnel with an increased MP presence, but after a couple of weeks, it'll be business as usual.