12 Dead, 31 Wounded @ FT HOOD

[CommodoreMid]

Last time I checked the "qual" in boot camp was one of those simulation things where they have a CO2 bottle attached to the pistol to simulate recoil and they're firing at a screen. We did these a couple times in my ROTC unit, and it was no where near like firing a real weapon. In the end I still think it should be done at accession sources, not at individual units. I've heard my SWO friends complain of commands not "accepting" the quals from their previous ships and forcing them to requal at their new commands. This, to me, suggests a lack of standardization. If we did it at boot/ROTC/OCS/USNA the same way like the Marines, then we could assure that SN/ENS Schmuckatelli would at least not go full retard when handed a weapon.

I could be talking out of my ass, so someone who knows better feel free to correct me, but this has been my perception.

 

[HercDriver]

Who gives a fuck about the bureaucratic bullshit you are telling us about! Troops are oversees and the generals are asking for re-enforcements. Its time for the boss to make a damn decision; and stop worrying about the consequences it may have on re-election.

Who gives a f-? Grown ups do.

If someone tells you how the world really works, and then you go "I don't care", you are gonna struggle in your time working within the Government.

You: "Chief, I need new tools for the maintainers".
Chief: "Please submit the procurement paperwork, and we will see if your department has the money".
You: "I don't care about this bureaucratic bullshit!"

This whole "More Troops or not More Troops" narrative pressed by the media is a bunch of BS. If you look in the actual leaked review you see that the increase is subordinate to the new approach he is looking for.

Here is a quote from Gen McChrystal's review [bold and underlined by me]:

t must be made clear: new resources are not the crux. To succeed, ISAF [the NATO command in Afghanistan] requires a new approach -- with a significant magnitude of change -- in addition to a proper level of resourcing. ISAF must restore confidence in the near-term through renewed commitment, intellectual energy and visible progress.

A new approach with a "significant magnitude of change" is the number one thing he wants. And with how long the war has gone on and how bad it was bollixed up by the previous administration, he needs to ensure input from those involved and the proper decision is made.

Also, I didn't know it was appropriate to "shout out" to a Medal of Honor recipent. How about a respectful recognition from the highest office. Perception is reality.

My perception is that the Medal of Honor recipient appreciated it...guess that's the reality.:icon_wink

 

[navy09]

Last time I checked the "qual" in boot camp was one of those simulation things where they have a CO2 bottle attached to the pistol to simulate recoil and they're firing at a screen.

That's a FATS simulator. I've only done it once, but I think it's good training and saves ships and squadrons valuable NCEA. Nevertheless, I know some sailors have done a live fire at boot and thought everyone did it, I could be wrong though.

In the end I still think it should be done at accession sources, not at individual units. I've heard my SWO friends complain of commands not "accepting" the quals from their previous ships and forcing them to requal at their new commands. This, to me, suggests a lack of standardization. If we did it at boot/ROTC/OCS/USNA the same way like the Marines, then we could assure that SN/ENS Schmuckatelli would at least not go full retard when handed a weapon.[quote/]

I could be talking out of my ass, so someone who knows better feel free to correct me, but this has been my perception.

WRT ships not accepting quals, to carry onboard you need an annual live fire qual to be documented in a 3591. If your SWO friend didn't have that form showing he'd shot in the last year, yes he would have to requalify. This is done to maintain proficiency in handling a loaded weapon, not to be an annoyance. The "standardization" you seek is provided by the Small Arms Marksmanship Instructor (it's an NEC). They're the guys actually instructing and qualifying people. They've all had the same training and they know "the Navy way."

 

[Jim123]

I've heard my SWO friends complain of commands not "accepting" the quals from their previous ships and forcing them to requal at their new commands.

Which is actually a good, common sense policy. Any aviation unit with a decent standardization program will schedule a "new guy" on an indoc flight with either the skipper or some trusted experienced person.

"Before you fly one of my airplanes..." ~= "Before you stand an armed watch on my ship..."

 

[Brett327]

Maybe not for this thread; but: I don't think anyone's lobbying to have 'everyone on base' armed ... I know I'm not ...

However, I think it's reasonable to extend the legitimate, legal, proven, and government licensed right of self-defense to cover a law abiding citizen on both sides of the perimeter. There's nothing more inherently duplicitous than a government that says I can 'carry' legally outside the wire after jumping through the appropriate hoops -- I just can't 'carry' inside. And on a military base, to boot ... weapons ... sidearms ... the military ... I thought they went together, like salt & pepper???

The government sanctions (and collects a tax on) my ability to carry and protect myself & others OUTSIDE of a government facility -- just not 'inside'. Ridiculous -- and it effectively disarms that same person 'outside the wire' in the mean streets of civie-town USA if any part of the journey might take them to say ... to the NEX ... the Commissary ... the Post Office. Brings a whole new light to the term 'going postal', ye-as???

I'm certainly in favor of extending the rights that military members have off-base (like CCW) to on base - no problem there. Some in this thread were essentially suggesting that we arm "all hands" and I think that's a bad idea.

@ Phrog: I wouldn't have a problem with that on a Marine base because Marines have the training and probably more discipline than your average Sailor. You may not realize this, but your average MK1 Mod 0 Sailor gets zero firearms training. I don't know if they even still go to the pistol range in boot camp, but in my book, doing a 30 round fam fire = zero firearms training. I never said that a CCW = highly trained - dunno where you got that. I did say that those who are qualified to carry on base today do so only after getting training and having a specific purpose for carrying, like security.

Brett

 

[Ducky]

Who gives a f-? Grown ups do.

If someone tells you how the world really works, and then you go "I don't care", you are gonna struggle in your time working within the Government.

You: "Chief, I need new tools for the maintainers".
Chief: "Please submit the procurement paperwork, and we will see if your department has the money".
You: "I don't care about this bureaucratic bullshit!"

This whole "More Troops or not More Troops" narrative pressed by the media is a bunch of BS. If you look in the actual leaked review you see that the increase is subordinate to the new approach he is looking for.

Here is a quote from Gen McChrystal's review:

A new approach with a "significant magnitude of change" is the number one thing he wants. And with how long the war has gone on and how bad it was bollixed up by the previous administration, he needs to ensure input from those involved and the proper decision is made.


My perception is that the Medal of Honor recipient appreciated it...guess that's the reality.:icon_wink

If I think something is jacked up within my unit, you're damn right Im going to try to adress it with the means available to me at my level through the appropriate channels. If it improves the quality of life and or unit efficiency its well worth the effort.
With that being said, there is a difference in being an officer working within the system you are given, and being the man at the top that has the ability to make all the decisions.

Im not saying a decision needs to be made in a day, but a large amount of time has passed. Initial indecision in the short term in an attempt to make a well informed decision is not necessarily a bad thing; however, there comes a point in time when indecision over a prolonged period will serve as a detriment to the task at hand.

 

[Viper 01]

Well done to the Police officer that stopped this lunatic.

 

[Brett327]

If I think something is jacked up within my unit, you're damn right Im going to try to adress it with the means available to me at my level through the appropriate channels. If it improves the quality of life and or unit efficiency its well worth the effort.
With that being said, there is a difference in being an officer working within the system you are given, and being the man at the top that has the ability to make all the decisions.

Im not saying a decision needs to be made in a day, but a large amount of time has passed. Initial indecision in the short term in an attempt to make a well informed decision is not necessarily a bad thing; however, there comes a point in time when indecision over a prolonged period will serve as a detriment to the task at hand.

Shipmate, there's a process and it's being followed. Don't pretend like you have a big picture grasp of this situation, because you clearly don't. As others have already posted, there's more to the RFF process than the President waiving his hand and Marines walking off a C-17 in Baghram - even if the administration decides that more troops are what they want. Whining about it makes you look silly and uninformed.

Brett

 

[Ducky]

Shipmate, there's a process and it's being followed. Don't pretend like you have a big picture grasp of this situation, because you clearly don't. As others have already posted, there's more to the RFF process than the President waiving his hand and Marines walking off a C-17 in Baghram - even if the administration decides that more troops are what they want. Whining about it makes you look silly and uninformed.

Brett

You're right, I don't have a grasp of the big picture from the military side of things, but from a U.S. Citizen perspective it doesnt take a rocket scientist to recognize wavering leadership. Hopefully history will prove me ignorant and incorrect.

 

[Boog]

A recurrent problem here is a lack of leadership. The Army/Medical Corps knew about this guy and did NOTHING. USUHS faculty knew about this guy and did NOTHING. Swiss cheese, anyone?
It's not about his own PTSD (bullshit)/insanity or the fact that the Army refused to release this officer from his obligations regardless if he were to pay the DoD back what he owed them. He would be paying forever, but not if the Army would have shit-canned this guy years ago before they dumped hundreds of thousands of dollars training him (or better yet, selected someone else).
The lack of leadership (neglecting his own) of his chain of command was a major contributor in this tragedy. Unfortunately, the song remains the same. Instead of arming the masses, let's promote/elect some true leaders.

My prayers go out to the families and brothers- in- arms of the injured and fallen.

As for Islam, no comment.

 

[picklesuit]

If I think something is jacked up within my unit, you're damn right Im going to try to adress it with the means available to me at my level through the appropriate channels. If it improves the quality of life and or unit efficiency its well worth the effort.
With that being said, there is a difference in being an officer working within the system you are given, and being the man at the top that has the ability to make all the decisions.

Im not saying a decision needs to be made in a day, but a large amount of time has passed. Initial indecision in the short term in an attempt to make a well informed decision is not necessarily a bad thing; however, there comes a point in time when indecision over a prolonged period will serve as a detriment to the task at hand.

Hey Ducky, you can start talking about your "unit" when you get out of flight school...

WRT the decisions by the president, this shit DOES take time...as does anything else..I've been waiting for orders to come from Supply longer than the president has been debating this troop issue.

As much as I dislike his policies, political dogma, and leadership style; he DOES deserve the time to gather the appropriate data to make a good decision. Besides, if he makes the WRONG decision, we can hammer his nuts to the wall about it and he can't say he was rushed.

The "media" (if that is what you really want to call the rabble on TV every day, 24/7) are not experts. The people they get on their show are rarely experts, they are people with an agenda, just like everyone else in public service/politics/business. They can bitch and moan all day about the President taking his time, about every nitpicky bullshit decision, about the inflection in his tone, and at the end of the day NOTHING THEY SAY will have an impact on anything but the retards in America who make their decisions based on FNC, CNN, MSNBCrap.

My final point is this...whether you are at the bottom, the middle, or the top, you have to work within the system. The CO still has to fumble through SHARP 5.1, the ATAN still has to write a MAF, the LT PPC still has to wait for OOMA to load. We all have to work within the system. In fact, when people start working outside the system is when shit gets bent/broken, people get killed, and airplanes get destroyed.

Stop arguing with the dirty hinges who have been a part of the system since you were watching Top Gun in elementary school...it makes you sound petulant...

 

[CommodoreMid]

Which is actually a good, common sense policy. Any aviation unit with a decent standardization program will schedule a "new guy" on an indoc flight with either the skipper or some trusted experienced person.

"Before you fly one of my airplanes..." ~= "Before you stand an armed watch on my ship..."

I think that's a good idea now given we leave it up to individuals units basically to make sure individual Sailors are qualled. I'm arguing that we should take a page from the Marines and give intensive instruction at accession so you can take any Sailor out there and know he is capable of handling a weapon. The Marines put that faith in their people, why can't we up our training requirements at the beginning so we can put the same faith in ours?

 

[Jim123]

A recurrent problem here ...

Try to put yourself in the senior leadership's shoes and play a little devil's advocate against your own opinion here. Kicking a doctor out of the military is a tough sell up the chain of command. While the investigations do their jobs to determine culpability and recommend future preventative measures I'd make my own comments a little less passionate... just sayin'.

 

[Boog]

My point exactly, senior leadership!! He wasn't a doctor while in med school. And...we aren't even talking about his competency as a physician.
Jim, Did you know the accused?
Passion or not, just stating the facts.

 

[Ducky]

JOPA Words of Wisdom..

Much of what you said is good stuff, and I agree these decisions take time. I'm just wondering when does it become a matter of taking too much time and become detrimental to the mission?

I haven't said it yet, but my thoughts and prayers are with the families affected by this tradjedy.