2011 accp

[Brett327]

VFA has always had an 8 year commitment and VFA JOs still bail in droves at the 8 year point. I don’t think it will be any different for any of the other communities.

To those who say that DH tours arent that bad and that they enjoyed their DH experience: Apparently there is a difference between a VFA DH tour and any other community’s DH tour. If VFA DH tours were that enjoyable, people would not be getting out and our bonus would not be $25,000. From what I have seen, VFA DH tour = the suck.

I suspect that the relatively small number of aviators per squadron has a big part to play, but this isn't anything new. Moreover, this would seem to have the greatest impact on the JOs, as I imagine the number of DHs is more inline with other T/M/S - at least in the TACAIR realm. What's the standard number of DH per VFA squadron? I know the VFA folks typically have an LDO type as AO (a double edged sword from the Admin LDOs I've seen). At any rate, if VFA DH is so bad, it would seem like the time when people bailed would be after their DH tours, not before. It's difficult to buy the notion that JOs in a squadron observe the DH pain in progress, then carry that memory through 2 additional tours. This begs the question: Perhaps it's the first tour VFA JO experience that's making people opt out of DH and not the DH tour itself. If that's the case (big hypothetical, of course), how are the VFA DH and above ill-serving their JOs to poison their potential for retention?

Food for thought,

Brett

 

[MasterBates]

Very true.. Unless due to low JO numbers and LDOs being AO/QAO/Possibly MO, are the LCDRs on the DH tour being given "Shitty JO Jobs"?

I did not pay that close attention, I know some WTIs/TrainOs are LCDRs, but not on DH tours. We just got a LT WTI at my squadron for the first time in my 20 months there.

 

[Brett327]

Very true.. Unless due to low JO numbers and LDOs being AO/QAO/Possibly MO, are the LCDRs on the DH tour being given "Shitty JO Jobs"?

I did not pay that close attention, I know some WTIs/TrainOs are LCDRs, but not on DH tours. We just got a LT WTI at my squadron for the first time in my 20 months there.

That's standard. WTI/Training O/Etc are all second sea tour guys who will show up as LTs and put on O4 mid-tour.

Brett

 

[pilot_man]

I suspect that the relatively small number of aviators per squadron has a big part to play, but this isn't anything new. Moreover, this would seem to have the greatest impact on the JOs, as I imagine the number of DHs is more inline with other T/M/S - at least in the TACAIR realm. What's the standard number of DH per VFA squadron? I know the VFA folks typically have an LDO type as AO (a double edged sword from the Admin LDOs I've seen). At any rate, if VFA DH is so bad, it would seem like the time when people bailed would be after their DH tours, not before. It's difficult to buy the notion that JOs in a squadron observe the DH pain in progress, then carry that memory through 2 additional tours. This begs the question: Perhaps it's the first tour VFA JO experience that's making people opt out of DH and not the DH tour itself. If that's the case (big hypothetical, of course), how are the VFA DH and above ill-serving their JOs to poison their potential for retention?

Food for thought,

Brett

Most squadrons do have an LDO who does admin, but the AO title still goes to a Dept Head. The jobs are all the same in the single seat world (Safety, Admin, Mntc, Ops), but the order will change from squadron to squadron. I'm not sure how the 2 seat squadrons deal with it. I personally didn't see a lot of DH ass pain, so maybe they were just better at hiding it than others. From what I've seen, people aren't leaving because they don't want to be department heads, they are leaving because they are tired of the Navy bull shit and the way the navy has gone recently. The Navy is too worried about politics and not worried enough about standing up for it's people. You can only shit on your people for so long before the rest realize thet's how they will be treated too.

 

[Gatordev]

For those interested, here's the Reserve message. I'm still trying to figure out what a "board-selected FTS Aviation OIC tour assigned to a squadron..." is. I thought board selected OICs weren't attached to squadrons but instead to dets or Wings.

UNCLASSIFIED//
FM CNO WASHINGTON DC//N1//
TO NAVADMIN
INFO CNO WASHINGTON DC//N1//
UNCLAS //N07220//
NAVADMIN 169/11
MSGID/GENADMIN/CNO WASHINGTON DC/N1/MAY//
SUBJ/FY-11 FULL TIME SUPPORT AVIATION CAREER CONTINUATION PAY//
RMKS/1. A VITAL PART OF DEVELOPING A TOTAL FORCE STRATEGY AND
MAINTAINING COMBAT READINESS IS TO PROVIDE APPROPRIATE INCENTIVES TO
RETAIN SKILLED PERSONNEL FOR CRITICAL NAVAL AVIATION ENTERPRISE
BILLETS. THE FULL TIME SUPPORT (FTS) AVIATION CAREER CONTINUATION
PAY (ACCP) PROGRAM PROVIDES SELECTED BONUSES AS AN INCENTIVE TO
ELIGIBLE PILOTS AND NAVAL FLIGHT OFFICERS THROUGH DEPARTMENT HEAD
AND COMMAND BILLETS.
2. THE FY-11 FTS ACCP PROGRAM CONTINUES THE TIERED BONUS SYSTEM OF
PREVIOUS YEARS THAT IS TIED DIRECTLY TO FORCE STRUCTURE AND TARGETS
INITIAL ELIGIBLE AVIATORS AND COMMAND BILLETS. ANNUAL RATES ARE
$10,000 FOR SQUADRON DEPARTMENT HEAD/WING STAFF, AND BOARD-SCREENED
SQUADRON OIC. THE AVIATION COMMANDER COMMAND BONUS IS ONLY OFFERED
FOR OPERATIONAL SQUADRONS OR OPERATIONAL TRAINING SQUADRONS AT AN
ANNUAL RATE OF $12,000. THE CAPTAIN COMMAND BONUS HAS BEEN
ELIMINATED FROM THE PROGRAM.
3. FY-11 FTS ACCP APPLICATIONS MUST BE RECEIVED PRIOR TO 24 SEP 11.
4. FOR SPECIFIC DETAILS, ELIGIBILITY, ADMINISTRATIVE PROCEDURES AND
APPLICATION LETTER FORMAT, VISIT THE FTS AVIATION OFFICER WEBSITE
AT: HTTP://WWW.PUBLIC.NAVY.MIL/BUPERS-
NPC/OFFICER/DETAILING/FULLTIMESUPPORT/PAGES/AVIATORS.ASPX
5. FOR INFORMATION AND APPLICATION QUESTIONS, CONTACT CDR DANIEL
OGDEN AT (901) 874-4146/DSN 882 OR EMAIL AT DANIEL.OGDEN@NAVY.MIL
6. RELEASED BY VADM MARK FERGUSON N1//

 

[MAKE VAPES]

I know for VR OIC is for the Executive Transport Dets... makes no sense to give those dudes a bonus (or COs for that matter), they would do the job for free just for the opportunity to fly once again. OIC jobs in VR are otherwise gone, donno about the VTs, again, folks would do it for free.

Can the clowns who go to the wings (FLELOGSUPWG et al) get another bonus after they get the DH bonus???

Do the VT wings count???

The bonus these days is a pat on the back, does absolutelly zero to actually retain quality folks... the real quality folks are still getting out as mentioned previously.

 

[Gatordev]

I know for VR OIC is for the Executive Transport Dets... makes no sense to give those dudes a bonus (or COs for that matter), they would do the job for free just for the opportunity to fly once again. OIC jobs in VR are otherwise gone, donno about the VTs, again, folks would do it for free.

Can the clowns who go to the wings (FLELOGSUPWG et al) get another bonus after they get the DH bonus???

Do the VT wings count???

The bonus these days is a pat on the back, does absolutelly zero to actually retain quality folks... the real quality folks are still getting out as mentioned previously.

The "instruction" says one DH bonus in your career. I'm guessing that a VT wing would count as a "Wing Staff," but don't know.

What you're saying about ETD was what I was getting at. ETD OIC, okay, that makes sense. But when I was at the VTs, the OIC (which still exists) was at the wing and flew with one of the squadrons. The way the "instruction" makes it sound, it would be for a guy who was both an OIC (like a FRS SAU OIC) AND a board select, which would only be TRACOM and ETD. I'll have to send off an email.

 

[NightVisionPen]

There is also a difference between single seat VFA and two seat VFA. In a single seat VFA squadron you tend to only have 3 O-4 DHs and 6-8 in a two seat squadron. In a single seat squadron you still have just as much work that needs to be done, but half as many guys to do it as in a two seat squadron. That's a big deal.

Also, most VFA JOs don't have to carry the memory of how shitty their DHs lives were for two tours because typically a VFA guy goes from first fleet tour to shore tour and many go directly to DH. Most of the ones that don't are either training officers or CAG staff and it is right in front of them. I know a lot of guys who decided to look for Fs because of the decreased work load. Some of them found that not to be the case as the greater number of people allow more of them to be shit bags and the rest have to pick up the slack. But that is squadron dependent.

 

[BusyBee604]

Some of them found that not to be the case as the greater number of people allow more of them to be shit bags and the rest have to pick up the slack. But that is squadron dependent.

I find that hard to believe! Has the Training Command "filtering system" deteriorated that much since I retired? Back in the day, "SBs" were ID'd and weeded out very early in the program, few ever made it to the fleet. :icon_conf
BzB
:sleep_125

 

[Brett327]

I find that hard to believe! Has the Training Command "filtering system" deteriorated that much since I retired? Back in the day, "SBs" were ID'd and weeded out very early in the program, few ever made it to the fleet. :icon_conf
BzB
:sleep_125

Unfortunately, very few are weeded out and it's even more difficult to get rid of non-hackers once they hit the fleet.

Brett

 

[gotta_fly]

I find that hard to believe! Has the Training Command "filtering system" deteriorated that much since I retired? Back in the day, "SBs" were ID'd and weeded out very early in the program, few ever made it to the fleet. :icon_conf
BzB
:sleep_125

From what I saw in the training command, they've been on 'filter bypass' for a while...

 

[lowflier03]

From what I saw in the training command, they've been on 'filter bypass' for a while...

The common response I hear when asking about $&!+bags making it through is that the instructors are constantly told that they are "a pump, not a filter."

 

[FlyBoyd]

In order to save money, they have tried to nat's ass the attrition to the point where every single body matters. We no longer have the ability to absorb a short term high attrition rate.

 

[scoolbubba]

Wouldn't winging a guy and FNAEBing him later cost more?

 

[helolumpy]

Wouldn't winging a guy and FNAEBing him later cost more?

That assumes we FNAEB those folks you speak of...