2011 accp

[Gatordev]

It will be interesting to see how this year's O5 board works out, but there are plenty of people at my squadron who are post-DH tour O4s wondering what to do next. The "standard community pipeline" for all communities gets kind of thin once you don't screen for CO. A lot of times it just says "SEA/OVERSEAS." The guys I work with were talking about how them having to go back to sea to make 20 and retire as an O4 is a lot of work for not a lot of payoff. In the past you at least stood a very solid chance of making O5 and running out the clock to retire as a CDR. After last year's O5 select rate, who knows?

Word from the detailers is that the O-5 rate will improve again in the next two years. That was as of April-ish. I wouldn't be surprised if the truth changed again.

GatorDev,

It easy for you to find it amusing AFTER you got yours. DH has to be one of the shittiest jobs in the Navy. Why would a guy want to take on a shit tour (depending on who you work for) and 2-3 more years of BS without being compensated when they can get out of the Navy and do something else. Yes, I am well aware that their is BS in the civilian world. However, its easier to take that BS knowing you'll be at home most nights, wont miss important family events and can walk anytime if you want. If the economy even shows the slightest improvement in the next year or so, the Navy is going to have some of its best and brightest going elsewhere.

Ahh, but you see, there was no guarentee I was getting a bonus the route I went (and the bonus I did get was SIGNIFICANTLY less than $125K), and yes, I knew I was rolling straight into a DH tour (which I'm now finishing). In fact, at the time, I was giving up $125K to go do the "same" job AND go to sea. That's when I would get the questions of "why are you doing this again?" The answer was simple. I skipped a boat tour, was pretty bullet-proof on an IA/GSA and it was still flying orders.

You're kind of proving my point. Even back when it was $125K, $25K/year isn't "that" much money after taxes. I certainly would like to get it, but it didn't make me stay on "the path" and and as a result, I GREATLY reduced my chances of making O-5. I think people SHOULD vote with their feet, for all the reasons you mention. My amusement is how generally people in the military are...let's say socially conservative, and don't like how the government gives handouts to the public because it makes the public come to expect it. But once the "military people" (Pilots/NFOs) don't get their money (which is not guarenteed each year), everyone gets upset.

I know it's not that simple and I understand what Scoob is saying. But it's still kind of funny.

 

[Scoob]

Its a bit of a stretch comparing the bonus to welfare. I wouldn't have any issue with welfare if you had to sign up for three years of sea duty in order to get it.

 

[Brett327]

DH has to be one of the shittiest jobs in the Navy.

I don't understand this statement. I know I'm a sample of one, but I'm finishing up my DH tour and have had a blast. If you're half-way decent at your job and your front office isn't packed with psychopaths, your DH tour should be a place where you can learn a lot, grow professionally and have a fair amount of control over your destiny - particularly WRT flying. How is your experience so different than mine?

Brett

 

[helolumpy]

GatorDev,

It easy for you to find it amusing AFTER you got yours. DH has to be one of the shittiest jobs in the Navy. Why would a guy want to take on a shit tour (depending on who you work for) and 2-3 more years of BS without being compensated when they can get out of the Navy and do something else. Yes, I am well aware that their is BS in the civilian world. However, its easier to take that BS knowing you'll be at home most nights, wont miss important family events and can walk anytime if you want. If the economy even shows the slightest improvement in the next year or so, the Navy is going to have some of its best and brightest going elsewhere.

I don't agree with a DH job being the shittiest jobs. I had a great time on my DH tour.
My joint tour was complete pain. Most of the people were great (individually) but the perception of what is truly imporant and needs to be done right this moment is way off! I've never had to work a weekend during my DH tour without it being plainly obvious what was going on and why we were there. During my Joint tour I had to come and on Saturday to make slides that "have to be rushed to the Joint Staff today". They got to the Pentagon and sat in someone's box for a week before they got around to dealing with the issue.

If you want to do a DH tour and continue to fly and serve then that should be reward enough. As for compensation you are still making a pretty decent paycheck; an O-4 over 10 is making $75,000 a year + flight pay + BAS/H.

If the lack of a bonus is the final straw, then thank you for your service. But allow me to say that the 'when the economy improves' argument has been made many times by different generations. Talk during my first shore duty was about how the Navy was going to be crushed when all us pre-T-notch folks bail due to the B.S. were having to deal with; well the Navy seemed to have manage.

 

[EODDave]

Def a bad comparison with the bonus to welfare. The bonus isnt a freebie handout with no work involved. I like Scoobs idea of having those on welfare do a sea tour. You shouldnt get something for nothing. Say here is your welfare check, but this 3 or 4 block section of street is your to keep clean. Sweepers Sweepers man your brooms.

 

[EODDave]

Like I said with a DH tour. It all depends on WHO you work for and what community you are in. I would also say the T-Notch had a fairly significant impact on Naval Aviation. Did we survive? Yes, but at what cost? Look at the state of Naval Aviation today. When politicians are saying that senior naval officers are being to politically correct in getting things done, then you know something is seriously out of whack. Look at all the BS training and the other bitching and moaning that all the serivces are complaining about. There are some great leaders out there. But there are also some out there who are in their position because they stayed in when alot of the really good guys didnt want to take the shit anymore.

"This decision shows the direction the Navy is heading," Hunter, a member of the House Armed Services Committee, said in his statement. "Naming a ship after Cesar Chavez goes right along with other recent decisions by the Navy that appears to be more about making a political statement than upholding the Navy's history and tradition."


Also WRT your DH tours, its easier to swallow hard times when your on the bonus. Its also easy to sit back while you are taking the $bonus$ and saying the money really doesnt matter. I think its easy to say that "I would have done it even if the bonus wasn't around". Maybe you would have, maybe not. Do you really think if you were in todays situation where you are doing the same job but making 15K less a year than the guy beside you, you wouldnt be miffed? Like I said, its easier to say that $$ isnt the issue when you are the one getting it.

 

[Gatordev]

Its a bit of a stretch comparing the bonus to welfare. I wouldn't have any issue with welfare if you had to sign up for three years of sea duty in order to get it.

I completely agree. That's why I didn't ever say the word "welfare." There's plenty of subsudies out there that people argue are or are not worth the amount of work that's perceived to be done. So here's my question for you... by your logic (and I understand it's a very limited statement) you should get a bonus for going to your first sea tour as a JO. It's a three year sea duty. Yes, I'm playing devil's advocate. I'm just getting at how something that isn't certain from year to year has become an entitlement, according to some (and I'm not necessarily talking about anyone here, as I understand Dave's points).

We all get paid decently, but it often feels like it's no where near enough for what we do. Independent of budgetary constraints or manning, I'm all for us getting paid more.

 

[Gatordev]

Didn't see this post...

Also WRT your DH tours, its easier to swallow hard times when your on the bonus. Its also easy to sit back while you are taking the $bonus$ and saying the money really doesnt matter. I think its easy to say that "I would have done it even if the bonus wasn't around". Maybe you would have, maybe not. Do you really think if you were in todays situation where you are doing the same job but making 15K less a year than the guy beside you, you wouldnt be miffed? Like I said, its easier to say that $$ isnt the issue when you are the one getting it.

I did all of those things. To me, staying on the golden path was not worth the money. I work "next to" (in the next hangar over as well as operationally) people who are getting almost $100K more than me and I'm doing the same job. It's just that my level of suck, OPTEMPO and general quality of life is better, and that was completely worth losing out on the money.

 

[Pags]

There surely exist the potential to have a fantastic DH tour, but a lot of that hinges on the quality of the front office, which is something you really can't control. I've spoken with plenty of DHs who worked for terrible skippers and they didn't enjoy their tour. And from Lumpy and Brett we have personal anecdotes of working with good COs. I can back up Lumpy's claim since I've worked for the same Skipper in the DH role and can say it's been a fantastic experience working with this individual. If all my bosses could be like that, life would be sunshine and lollipops.

If you want to continue to serve your Country and Navy, want to lead at sea, and work towards the opportunity to make CO then you probably could care less about the bonus. Will you take free money being offered to you to do the same job you'd do anyway? Unless you want to option to get out whenever you want, then why wouldn't you? If you're already fed up with the BS and time away from home then 125k or 50k probably isn't going to change your mind. Maybe instead of looking at the bonus as welfare we shuold consider it in the same vein as a corporate performance bonus. since you've made it to DH and have risen to the top of your peers then you get some extra cash for all your hard work. In the past that wasn't always the case since you could get a good chunk of the money regardless of your performance and never have to pay it back.

And to BigIron, I think a tour anywhere outside of your type wing can be very eye opening. It's nice to see if the grass is indeed greener or to at least add some different experiences to your personal bucket.

 

[EODDave]

The VFA community is going to be hurting for DH's in the next few years. I talked to a buddy of mine in Millington and this is whats up for VFA. The 02 year group that I was in was cut about in half maybe a bit more. Of those guys only 80% screened for 04 this year. In years past it was in the 90's percent wise that made 04. So now we have half the guys in a year group and only 80% of those screening for 04. Still have the same number of DH jobs to fill. So, who fills them. He is saying that the DH screen board for VFA will probably go away in the next couple of years. That guys that stay in and opt in will be DH's.

 

[smittyrunr]

The VFA community is going to be hurting for DH's in the next few years. I talked to a buddy of mine in Millington and this is whats up for VFA. The 02 year group that I was in was cut about in half maybe a bit more. Of those guys only 80% screened for 04 this year. In years past it was in the 90's percent wise that made 04. So now we have half the guys in a year group and only 80% of those screening for 04. Still have the same number of DH jobs to fill. So, who fills them. He is saying that the DH screen board for VFA will probably go away in the next couple of years. That guys that stay in and opt in will be DH's.

I'm not sure how that reasoning just applies to VFA. Numbers-wise, that applies to every community- they shrunk the in-zone list for O-4 and they are only taking 80% across the board. Next year's DH screen rates will be interesting to compare to this and previous years.

What makes more interesting to watch is that YG02 is also the first of the 8-yr comittments for all pilots. Where before most of the guys who were going to get out did so after shore duty, you now have a greater number who had to take a disassociated and aren't in a position to drop a letter yet. I think there are probably quite a few who figured if they had to stay in for a second sea tour anyway, at least there would be a bonus at the end and they'd see how the DH board played out. As someone else mentioned above- we'll see if this was a great miscalculation.

 

[Pap]

What makes more interesting to watch is that YG02 is also the first of the 8-yr comittments for all pilots. Where before most of the guys who were going to get out did so after shore duty, you now have a greater number who had to take a disassociated and aren't in a position to drop a letter yet. I think there are probably quite a few who figured if they had to stay in for a second sea tour anyway, at least there would be a bonus at the end and they'd see how the DH board played out. As someone else mentioned above- we'll see if this was a great miscalculation.

VFA has always had an 8 year commitment and VFA JOs still bail in droves at the 8 year point. I don’t think it will be any different for any of the other communities.

To those who say that DH tours arent that bad and that they enjoyed their DH experience: Apparently there is a difference between a VFA DH tour and any other community’s DH tour. If VFA DH tours were that enjoyable, people would not be getting out and our bonus would not be $25,000. From what I have seen, VFA DH tour = the suck.

 

[BigIron]

... From what I have seen, VFA DH tour = the suck.

If you had to sum it up, why is the VFA suck so bad?

 

[bert]

If you had to sum it up, why is the VFA suck so bad?

This an outsider's perspective (no matter how you look at it) but...

Helo/prop/etc guys go into their DH tours competing for a chance to make CDR and maybe CAPT. VFA frontrunners can legitimately consider themselves Flag candidates (assuming they are willing to commit to a lot of time away from home and a hell of a lot of work). That's a whole other level of pressure, and it can drive things to a higher level of suck.

One guy's theory.

 

[MasterBates]

I was an 02 YG guy, but was a 7 year contract due to BDCP.

I got sucked into 01, and this YG monkeybusiness is going to have fallout.. There will be 02YG guys who have not even been in zone, when I am most likely out for FOS x2.

HSL DH tours seemed to go two ways, seeing my DHs and friends who are there now as DHs.

1-"I'm going to retire as a LCDR and I'm cool with that".. They seemed to enjoy that.
2-"CO OR BUST" They seemed to hate life. And make JOPA hate them in the process.

VFA, you have what, 4-5 DHs necking down to 2 CO/XO billets? HSL has 10-12 for the same 2 slots. That seemed to cause issues if you had a lot of type 2 (in my above list) DHs on deck.

Again, I'm a non-screen ass clown, this is just how I see it.