You don't have to do too much digging before you find people that were shot ( many fatally ) during LE classes. We do not allow weapons in our classrooms for this reason. We do on site cleanings post range time, but are rigorous about clearing weapons before they go into the cleaning bay.
And this is why I refuse to carry a 1911. The idea of carrying condition 1 with the hammer cocked or in condition 2 and having to ride the hammer forward to get there never sat well with me.
The 1911 is likely the best pistol to carry in condition 1, it has three safety stops…an actual (slide) safety switch, a thumb safety, and the actual trigger! Many years ago when I was first learning my martial skills most of my teachers/trainers were Vietnam veterans. One memorable quote concerning the pistol was basically…”The M1911A1 is a defensive weapon…if you find yourself in a position where you need to use your sidearm you’ve fucked up so you’d better be an expert at using it or you’ll be totally fucked.”
But if that hammer falls -- for whatever reason -- there's nothing to stop the weapon from firing. I prefer DA-SA pistols with drop safeties/trigger disconnects for that very reason. Don't get me wrong, I love my Colt Commander and will likely be building a full frame 1911 soon, but I just think there are better, more modern pistols for carrying. 1911s are largely confined to range and competition use for me.
Unless it is unloaded, there is no such thing as a pistol that can’t misfire.
), but I'm objectively more accurate with a 1911 action than with an M11 or my still beloved P228. Especially when I have limited time and ammo to stay proficient.
I'll defer to people with more LE type of operations then me. But the problem with a SA trigger in LE is there can be a considerable amount of time when the weapon is out and a decision to fire has not been made. Covering subjects, clearing buildings etc. are very common examples. With a SA pistol you have to have it on the thumb safety until you are ready to fire. To use a SA pistol in LE type work takes a great deal of training, and you almost have to dedicate to just that style pistol so there is no negative training. With a SA pistol the brain must make a shoot decision and then to signal safety off and finger on trigger, trigger pull. After shooting and the adrenalin dump you have to remember to put the safety on before holstering or securing the weapon. . Much simpler with a DA/SA or revolver where all you need to do is move your finger a fraction of an inch and pull the trigger on making the shoot decision.Condition 2 on a 1911 should never be a thing, in my opinion. C2 should only apply to DA/SA pistols with a decocking lever. It's just too easy for a thumb to slip while riding the hammer forward on a 1911, and some weapons are still susceptible to firing if dropped. That said, I have no qualms carrying my 1911 at condition 1- albeit in a holster with a trigger guard-, and the only AD I have personally experienced was with a DA/SA pistol.
I find the downside of DA/SA is having to essentially learn two actions in one firearm- I have personally found it harder to shoot them accurately, particularly when under pressure. I am absolutely not the greatest pistol shot (one instructor commented that my target looked like I hit it with a Sten gun
What I think you’re digging at is the age old question of “how much training is sufficient?”.
I have a similar opinion. There's more that goes into the safety discussion than just preventing the weapon from going off if dropped or physical failure. For instance, I have a LOT of time behind an M9 from my ATFP and VBSS background some of which involved me dangling from a caving ladder 30 ft in the air. The M9 is NOT an ergonomic pistol for me as my thumb is too short to reach the safety with a normal grip which forces me to change my grip to sweep the safety on and off. To get around this, I seep the safety off the minute my hand goes onto the gun in the holster or I use my non-dominant hand to work the safety. Having that DA initial pull made the gun much safer for me, especially in a dynamic environment. I appreciated all of the safety features on the M9 for these reasons.
Maybe this is why I settled on a Glock 19 as my personal carry gun since it's a crisp trigger pull but has multiple internal safety mechanisms that make it inherently safe. It's also incredibly reliable and I have no fear that it won't Glock every time I need it to Glock unlike an M9 or other firearms.Condition 2 on a 1911 should never be a thing, in my opinion. C2 should only apply to DA/SA pistols with a decocking lever. It's just too easy for a thumb to slip while riding the hammer forward on a 1911, and some weapons are still susceptible to firing if dropped. That said, I have no qualms carrying my 1911 at condition 1- albeit in a holster with a trigger guard-, and the only AD I have personally experienced was with a DA/SA pistol.
I find the downside of DA/SA is having to essentially learn two actions in one firearm- I have personally found it harder to shoot them accurately, particularly when under pressure. I am absolutely not the greatest pistol shot (one instructor commented that my target looked like I hit it with a Sten gun
I’m sure you’re aware, and I assume it was your unit’s policy, but the manual safety lever on the M9 is worthless and was a holdover from old school military thinking with SA guns. The gun has a firing pin block so if I were you I would’ve just carried the gun with the safety off, especially if I was going into a situation I knew I might need it (boarding, etc).
That's the exact opposite of the training and manual of arms of the M9 within the Surface Navy. They rely upon the thumb safety to an unhealthy degree. In fact, I have seen Sailors mishandle M9s thinking they were being safe simply because the safety was on. Even in VBSS school, they made sure to drill into our heads to keep the safety on unless our eyes were looking at the target with sights aligned. As I stated above, I was very much a "rebel" for not doing that. If my M9 was not in the holster, 9 times out of 10 I had the safety off simply due to ergonomic challenges I had with the weapon.
It's not "old-school thinking." It's a recognition of the . . . umm . . . untalented population DoD has to occasionally teach how to shoot. Like my anti-gun New Jersey fellow JO who managed to kill a light fixture on the pistol range. There's a part of the modern-day DoD recruiting pool who is either borderline too dumb to be issued a weapon, or who was brought up to believe that guns are the spawn of Satan, and if you give someone one, they'll go and be compelled to shoot up a school because reasons.
I don't disagree. I was responding to @insanebikerboy's comment that having a thumb safety is antiquated. I've had to get dudes and dudettes like you mentioned weapons-qualified. I even saw a few try out for the VBSS pipeline. I don't know what's more worrisome, the fear that many in the Navy have about guns or the many people who join up and cannot swim (even after being trained).