All things MV-22 Osprey

[Roger_Waveoff]

A couple of questions from a nonvertical lift guy, so excuse my ignorance.

- Land As Soon As Possible - The report noted a helo pad and a smaller airport closer than the airfield they chose to divert to, does helo/VSTOL land ASAP options usually take into account help pads? Is there comprehensive info on helo pad location easily available like airfields? Second part of question, is land ASAP put the aircraft down on any available spot or the closest pad/airfield? And is there a difference between 'Land ASAP' and 'Land Right Fucking Now!'?

- V-22 Single Engine? A quick search finds that the V-22 can fly single engine but has some limitations doing so, so why isn't shutting down the engine part of the EP for a chips light? Was a catastrophic failure not considered likely? Too risky? Or do you wait for secondaries like in the 53?

We in the MV-22 community do not normally account for helo pads due to our size and extreme downwash. I'm sure many people here have seen the video of the CV-22 absolutely wrecking that hospital helipad in the UK.

Our NATOPS has Land Immediately, Land ASAPossible, and Land ASAPractical. Land ASAPossible for me as an aircraft commander normally means take it to the nearest airfield, assuming that's only like 10-15 minutes away which most of the time it is CONUS. But if all I have is a training LZ in the middle of the desert, I'll take that, too. Land Immediately means I'm looking off the nose and putting the plane down wherever it looks remotely safe to do so, whether that's a road or some farmer's field.

Shutting down 1 engine will not help you if it's a gearbox chips issue. Our interconnected drivetrain means the gearboxes are still working, just off the good engine as opposed to both engines. The load is still the same from idle up to single engine power.

 

[Flash]

We in the MV-22 community do not normally account for helo pads due to our size and extreme downwash. I'm sure many people here have seen the video of the CV-22 absolutely wrecking that hospital helipad in the UK.

Our NATOPS has Land Immediately, Land ASAPossible, and Land ASAPractical. Land ASAPossible for me as an aircraft commander normally means take it to the nearest airfield, assuming that's only like 10-15 minutes away which most of the time it is CONUS. But if all I have is a training LZ in the middle of the desert, I'll take that, too. Land Immediately means I'm looking off the nose and putting the plane down wherever it looks remotely safe to do so, whether that's a road or some farmer's field.

Shutting down 1 engine will not help you if it's a gearbox chips issue. Our interconnected drivetrain means the gearboxes are still working, just off the good engine as opposed to both engines. The load is still the same from idle up to single engine power.

Thank you very much! The Land Immediately and Land ASAPossible distinction is what I didn't know about, but wondered if there was something like that with vertical lift aircraft since I've seen helos land at random flat spot for emergencies sometimes. Good to know about chips and single engine.

Has there been or is one in the works to make a chips light Land Immediately vs Land ASAPossible after this mishap?

 

[Roger_Waveoff]

Thank you very much! The Land Immediately and Land ASAPossible distinction is what I didn't know about, but wondered if there was something like that with vertical lift aircraft since I've seen helos land at random flat spot for emergencies sometimes. Good to know about chips and single engine.

Has there been or is one in the works to make a chips light Land Immediately vs Land ASAPossible after this mishap?

It's Land Immediately with secondaries, Land ASAPossible if you don't. Should have clarified above, gearbox chips have always been *at least* Land ASAPossible.

 

[ChuckMK23]

And....

V-22 Osprey could see second life, with new drive system, wings in 2050s

The V-22 could see a second chapter, if the services keep the fuselages beyond the 2050s and give them new wings and drive systems to extend their lives.

www.defensenews.com

 

[ChuckMK23]

I thought it was interesting that both pilots on the mishap aircraft lacked rotary wing time prior to assignment to the V-22. I don't know if this was a factor - but flying a helo instills a certain mindset when it comes to XMSN issues...chip lights, oil press/temp, etc.

What do you guys think?

 

[phrogdriver]

I thought it was interesting that both pilots on the mishap aircraft lacked rotary wing time prior to assignment to the V-22. I don't know if this was a factor - but flying a helo instills a certain mindset when it comes to XMSN issues...chip lights, oil press/temp, etc.

What do you guys think?

It's not uncommon for F/W pilots to transition to the V-22. In fact, for at least some period of time, USAF initial assessions would come to the FRS with zero helo time, and would just get a couple extra sim rides to get them up to speed on "helicopterisms."

Generally speaking, the aircraft hovers so well that anything more than the basics of helicopter flight is unnecessary. As to whether helo guys take transmission failures more seriously, I don't know. "Land as soon a possible" and "land immediately" are supposed to speak for themselves, and any reasonable person should grasp that "spinny thing stops moving"=bad.

 

[Roger_Waveoff]

The Air Force has gone back and forth multiple times on which specific SUPT (Advanced) track produces CV-22 pilots. Currently, they come from the TH-1 helicopter track at Fort Rucker. Previously, CV-22 slots would drop to both T-38 and T-1 completers. The USAF is the outlier in that their V-22 pilots lack both fixed-wing and rotary-wing experience, but like phrogdriver said, there's room at VMMT-204 to massage this.

Looking at the most recent T&R manual, there are 2 simulator events that provide additional training on "Airplane flight, pattern, and EPs." When I was a CAT I student, these were written to provide additional helicopter fundamentals training. Noticed there's also an extra USAF-only Instrument flight, probably to rectify the huge disparity in IFR proficiency that almost certainly exists between Marine/Navy T-44 completers and USAF TH-1 completers.

 

[phrogdriver]

The Air Force has gone back and forth multiple times on which specific SUPT (Advanced) track produces CV-22 pilots. Currently, they come from the TH-1 helicopter track at Fort Rucker. Previously, CV-22 slots would drop to both T-38 and T-1 completers. The USAF is the outlier in that their V-22 pilots lack both fixed-wing and rotary-wing experience, but like phrogdriver said, there's room at VMMT-204 to massage this.

Looking at the most recent T&R manual, there are 2 simulator events that provide additional training on "Airplane flight, pattern, and EPs." When I was a CAT I student, these were written to provide additional helicopter fundamentals training. Noticed there's also an extra USAF-only Instrument flight, probably to rectify the huge disparity in IFR proficiency that almost certainly exists between Marine/Navy T-44 completers and USAF TH-1 completers.

I think that's not a great idea...better to take a F/W guy and give him a splash of helo landing, formation, and ground handling than vice versa.

 

[GroundPounder]

Marine who died trying to save crew in fiery Osprey crash to receive service's top noncombat medal

Collart "heroically reentered the burning cockpit of the aircraft in an attempt to rescue the trapped pilots," the official Marine Corps investigation into the crash found.

abc7chicago.com

WASHINGTON (AP) — Alexia and Bart Collart braced for a hard visit. Marines came to their home in Arlington, Virginia, last week to brief them on what caused the Osprey crash in Australia last year that resulted in the death of their son and two other Marines.

But they weren’t expecting to hear these words: Your son didn’t die in the crash.

Cpl. Spencer R. Collart had safely escaped the aircraft. But the 21-year-old saw that the Osprey’s two pilots were unaccounted for. Despite the smoke and flames, he went back in.


Make Shakespeare a liar, ensure that honor does live on with the living. Cpl. Collart sounds like a great person and Marine, prior to this incident, a certainly on that day.

 

[ChuckMK23]

Breaking....

 

[ChuckMK23]

Great read about the systemic failings of the contractor versus design of the aircraft.

Would welcome some color commentary by those of you in the industry or program level especially @phrogdriver

Flawed metal & failed communication: Breaking down the Air Force’s fatal Osprey crash

Documents reviewed by The Air Current reveal a persistent manufacturing problem with implications that extend beyond the V-22 Osprey and across military and civil aviation.

theaircurrent.com

 

[hscs]

Great read about the systemic failings of the contractor versus design of the aircraft.

Would welcome some color commentary by those of you in the industry or program level especially @phrogdriver

Flawed metal & failed communication: Breaking down the Air Force’s fatal Osprey crash

Documents reviewed by The Air Current reveal a persistent manufacturing problem with implications that extend beyond the V-22 Osprey and across military and civil aviation.

theaircurrent.com

Would disagree. A Monday morning QB article. They were in a Land ASA Practical after 3 x chip burns in 12 minutes and made decision to press to Kadena. That is a long, lonely stretch. We wouldn’t be talking if they landed.

Yes, there were manufacturing defects, but a risk decision was made of 10 events over thousands and thousands of flight hours. How many H60 MGBs, IGBs, TGBs had to be replaced for chips / failures for similar amount of flight time? A risk decision was made, and yes, the engineers were wrong, and it’s horrible. This type of risk decision happens every day across aviation and many other high risk enterprises. However, I will reiterate that landing when the ASA Practical triggered would have closed a critical Swiss cheese hole.