API Curriculum Mod

[Ducky]

IFS is a little weird. Most people I know made it through fine. However, I know a guy (SNFO) who got sent to a PRB and attrited because his IFS IP wouldn't endorse him to solo because he was having problems with landings. He only had somewhere around 23 dual landings when his checkride came up (I think I had at least 40).

Well, at least when I was there in Sep-OCT 07 the IFS instruction stated that the SNFO solo requirement could be waived. Perhaps your not getting the full story.

Additionally, I know several people who chose to DOR simply because IFS taught them that they were not comfortable handling an aircraft. Better to redesignate them at that stage then to waste a bunch of Jet A on them.

 

[Gator NFO]

And this whole idea leaves me with a few questions. What the heck do they plan to do with the 20%? That is going to be an awful lot of people that the Navy needs to find jobs for right after they started a program (instead of spread out like they are now).

Maybe this is Big Navy's plan to get more fresh meat to fill IAs in Iraq and Afghanistan. Attrite from API, and you stop by Stucon by 1830 to pick up your non-stop bus ticket for a ride to Ft Jackson leaving at 1900.

 

[MIDNJAC]

Looking back on the training, API is the dinosaur. It is slow and inefficient. I’m glad I don’t have to put up with a three week curriculum but it can definitely get done. I did API just over a month ago and we must have been out by 1300 half the time. There was a lot of time to study; too much really. The biggest concern of half the students was “who can get a 100.” The extra time left students over-studying. Frankly, I never had to learn efficient study habits because I had so much extra time. In this way I would have really benefited from a shorter course.

One last thought… API as a three week TDY might make the most sense. Fly students down, put them up in the Q, run them through the course, and ship them back to wherever they’ve been hanging out pre-PCola.

I agree 100%

 

[Godspeed]

I agree 100%

I concur. When I went through API (about 3 months ago), the big problem that NASC was having dealt with student pay. It was a huge sh*tstorm that involved students, civillian admin, and practically everyone in the chain of command at API. Some studs were earning BAH, some were earning transient BAH (only about $400-$500). Some were making full BAH plus per diem. It was all over the map, and the only thing that seemed to dictate what pay you were getting was the person that processed your file at PSD.

There seemed to be no clarity to it. Classes were desperately trying to get clear answers from the chain of command at API, and the chain were trying to figure out what the deal was from PSD, but no one could get or give a straight answer.

A lot of ROTC guys walked with 5-6 grand of BAH and per diem money. On the other hand, a lot of OCS guys left API with 2 or 3 months of transient BAH and never saw another dime. The only ones that faired ok (from my experience) were prior enlisted and those that were married (w/ follow on to Whiting).

PSD got audited and got in quite a bit of trouble for reasons i'm not aware (something to do with the API BAH deal from what they told us). Needless to say, it was a huge confusing mess as to how studs going through API were classified and paid.

Although I hope this decision to shorten the program took more into account, I have the feeling that a big reason they chose to do so was $$. My $.02.

 

[Uncle Fester]

Although I hope this decision to shorten the program took more into account, I have the feeling that a big reason they chose to do so was $$. My $.02.

And you would be wrong. We're trying to transition API into the JPATS program - which was designed for the Air Force. So this is a square peg, round hole deal, and streamlining and shortening the program is one of the ways we're doing it.

There's a lot of agonizing going on above your paygrades to try and make this work. Believe it or not, this isn't some evil plan to screw ensigns out of a fun time in flight school.

It's going to suck. Deal. Won't be the last time in your Naval Experience.

Incidentally, all you "recent API grad" studs going on about the methods and philosophy of why things are done the way they are in the Program... it's sort of like a bunch of fleas on a dog's ass critiquing the judges at the Dog Show. No offense.

 

[SDNalgene]

Believe it or not, this isn't some evil plan to screw ensigns out of a fun time in flight school.

Respectfully sir, I call shenanigans. There is always some plan in the works to deprive us of fun or at least red tape all the joy out of things that used to be fun, always. It's our humble honor to resist it and when necessary adapt new and innovative ways to have more fun than we should.

 

[loadtoad]

I heard that we are going to mandatory 12 hour days in Primary to help stream line the Navy to be more like the AF. When the T-6's come of course...:icon_wink

 

[Uncle Fester]

Respectfully sir, I call shenanigans. There is always some plan in the works to deprive us of fun or at least red tape all the joy out of things that used to be fun, always. It's our humble honor to resist it and when necessary adapt new and innovative ways to have more fun than we should.

Well said, but you're making the mistake of thinking we give a shit about your enjoyment and quality of life...and trying to deprive you of them. It's just really, really low on our list of priorities.

Still...right idea. It's the spirit of JOPA.

 

[FlyinRock]

IFS is a little weird. Most people I know made it through fine. However, I know a guy (SNFO) who got sent to a PRB and attrited because his IFS IP wouldn't endorse him to solo because he was having problems with landings. He only had somewhere around 23 dual landings when his checkride came up (I think I had at least 40).

So standards are a bit of an issue, and my point is that you shouldn't assume you can't get attrited for IFS. That said, I concur with Nomar: API and A-pool is pretty inefficient and can probably be improved by shortening the syllabus. I was thinking more like 4 weeks, though. 3 would be pretty tough.

Sounds strange to me because no students are allowed to solo until they have a minimum of 30 takeoff/landing (per IFS instructions) and the average over a many years span and thousands of students is 44.6. Sounds like something is missing in that story??

 

[xmid]

Something I thought was retarded with IFS was sending 30-40 some odd students out to 6 different schools (some as far as 1.5-2 hours away) for ground school. Why not just have one big class in one of the empty buildings and pay one guy to teach it vice 6 different instructors teaching the same thing. That along with the gas spent on government vans getting students to these locations for ground school (if you were at the quarterdeck at 0530 and lucky enough to get one) seems to make for alot of frivelous spending. Not to mention that extra 3 or 4 hours a day I could have better spent studying/drinking...

 

[Godspeed]

all you "recent API grad" studs going on about the methods and philosophy of why things are done the way they are in the Program ... like a bunch of fleas on a dog's ass critiquing the judges at the Dog Show. No offense.

Sir, I'm not sitting here judging or critiquing any philosophies. I'm stating a simple fact; when I went through API, the pay system was screwed up. I'm not how long you've been there or not, but i'm sure you'd probably agree with me to an extent on that (I know my instructors did).

I don't think these pay problems are (or were) so minimal as to just affect the beer money or the "fun" being had by a few studs. There were several students that were told one thing (aka, you'll be receiving full Pensacola BAH), and subsequently had it taken away for no apparent reason. The vast majority of students in my class, along with several other classes, had no idea what they were entitled to. Resultantly, several went through some tough times financially (had 2-3k taken out of their subsequent paychecks, and a couple were on the verge of bankruptcy).

Luckily, I didn't have to deal with this, but if i'd been collecting pay I thought I was entitled to (standard BAH of where I was assigned), and a few months later I had several grand taken out of my paycheck with no explanation, I'd probably be a little pissed off. (I'd imagine anyone would be in that situation).

Wasn't trying to stir up an ants nest sir. Nor was I trying to critique. From what it seemed, these problems had more to do with PSD than anything else anyway. Was merely trying to suggest the possibility that the myriad of problems that were occuring somehow could have been tied to this. Thanks for clearing things up anyhow.

V/R

Godspeed

 

[Uncle Fester]

And in regards to IFS PRBs: I've sat on more than one of those. Without giving away the shop, let's just say we don't really care about your landing skillz, we're looking for bigger problems.

Contrary to Ensign Grand Unified Theory, we're not looking for excuses to attrite people, either. But if you are stupid, lazy, or just hopelessly airsick, we'd rather find out sooner than later.

Regarding the pay/BAH thing, Godspeed. Yeah, it's screwed up. It's something that came down from Up High and puzzles the instructors as much as it does you kids. But it's not our policy (us, meaning NASC or API) and it has no bearing on the structure of API or how the classes are run.

I was specifically referring to some of the "well, I graduated last week and I know how it works" posts, not yours. You guys just aren't privvy to the behind-the-scenes of how this particular show runs. You just see the smoke and mirrors and white tigers jumping through hoops.

Keep asking questions, keep trying to figure out the system, keep applying a stink test to what happens in the Navy. It's the only way things improve. JOPA functions for the Navy like a free press does for the republic. But I'm just saying, in this particular instance, your theories are incorrect.

 

[Ducky]

I don't think these pay problems are (or were) so minimal as to just affect the beer money or the "fun" being had by a few studs. There were several students that were told one thing (aka, you'll be receiving full Pensacola BAH), and subsequently had it taken away for no apparent reason. The vast majority of students in my class, along with several other classes, had no idea what they were entitled to. Resultantly, several went through some tough times financially (had 2-3k taken out of their subsequent paychecks, and a couple were on the verge of bankruptcy).

Although there was a grand pay fiasco, as officers we are all responsible for knowing what we are entitled too. PSD should be able to back you up and provide some info, but the officer should ultimately know the regs that govern his men and himself (or her). I was screwed out of some travel per diem, but after going back and being persistent I received what I was entitled. All instructions that PSD follows with regards to pay is public information. If you can't use google to get it PM me and I will help you find it.

 

[puck_11]

I don't like the idea of having API be the primary filter that the Navy uses to decide what is going to be a quality aviator. The classes at API don't actually prepare you for the aircraft, so why use this as a measuring stick. That's what the whole application process is for. The system that we have in place allows those who can operate an aircraft in the air prove it in the air, and those who can't have the same opportunity. It's the job of the instructors in primary/advanced to seperate the two.

The job of "Aviation Preflight Indoctrination" should be exactly what is in the title. It should be a classroom setting to get our most junior students up to speed on the very basics. I doubt that they will listen to me, but if they are going to make it the bar that all are judged at, they can at least change the name to:

"Accelerated Student Survial: Cheat, Learn, Or Washout Now!"

ASS CLOWN, for short.

If we are going to follow an Air Force model, we may as well name it after them.

A guy that winged a few months ago down here in Kingsville actually attrited from API and the Colonel from MATSG let him back in to give him another shot. He ended up doing well in primary as well as advanced and ended up Top Hook at the boat. He's now flying Hornets in the RAG. One of his pink sheet trackers from API said he had less than a 10% chance of getting his wings, regardless of platform.

 

[insanebikerboy]

One of his pink sheet trackers from API said he had less than a 10% chance of getting his wings, regardless of platform.

That dude needs to frame that and hang it on his I Love Me Wall.