Are stories of the SWO community valid?

[Pags]

The main difference between the SWO and Aviation communities is that this crucible of leadership for SWOs starts on day one with an Ensign standing in front of their division. For Aviators, this crucible doesn't come until much later in their careers, usually in their Department Head tours. Take a hard look at the Maintenance organization in any squadron. As you peel back that onion, I bet money you'll start to see the stress of keeping aircraft flying impacting leadership - maybe directly from the Maintenance Officer or from senior enlisted.

I felt there was a lot of good, honest stuff in your post, but I wanted to specifically address the issue above. This seems to be a misconception that comes up on here every time we have a SWO discussion. The rebuttal from the SWOs always seems to be: "well, we're better leaders because we're divos from the get go". I don't know if this is based on appearances or what, but I've found it to be far from the truth. One of my first jobs in the fleet was to be the detachment's division of 40ish sailors. Granted, because of flight school, I was a very junior LT when this happened, but my time in the fleet was similar to that of any SWO JO. Within a year of checking into the squadron I was a HAC and was in charge of a multi-million dollar helo, a crew of four and responsible for up to 11 passengers, their safety, and mission completion. Almost all of my later jobs had division officer responsibilities attached to them. As a a JO in a det based squadron, I was often the second senior most officer on the det, behind the OIC. By then end of my first squadron tour, I was routinely responsible for the running of a department. The CO and XO couldn't have cared less that my title was "assistant DH", they held me to task as if I were an O-4. The gulf of responsibility between a nugget who's in charge of ordering everyone's nametags to a Senior HAC who responsible for ensuring that everyone achieves their quals in a timely manner is pretty wide.

A lot of folks on this board are still in the training command, and as you have pointed out, haven't seen the pressures of command at their level. But as a JO in squadron, these pressures are very apparent. And as HeyJoe pointed out in another thread, just because you wear wings, you don't instantly become a far better CO than a SWO and all aviation commands aren't always the rainbows and lollipops we sometimes make them out to be. I had a Skipper who when asked about flagging squadron morale yelled at the wardroom that "THERE IS NO MORALE PROBLEM IN MY SQUADRON".

 

[Flash]

The parochial and myopic veiws from the Aviators in this thread are about what I would expect and they are dissappointing - even the anecdotal comments from some of the HSL bubbas.

Just FYI, some of the guys here making the most biting comments are former SWO's.

The main difference between the SWO and Aviation communities is that this crucible of leadership for SWOs starts on day one with an Ensign standing in front of their division. For Aviators, this crucible doesn't come until much later in their careers, usually in their Department Head tours.

By the time a JO in a squadron gets to his last year he or she is often leading a crew or even strike packages, depending on the community. As a Mission Commander in EP-3's I led a crew of 24 on the only aircraft of type in theater. Often times if we were not up and ready a strike of 30-50 aircraft could not cross the border into Iraq. There are similar examples across all aviation communities. While we might not run departments in our squadrons until we are O-4's there is definitely a 'crucible of leadership' that we go through, it just happens to be focused on our primary missions. Now who is being myopic and parochial?

Ironically the LT who did the PEP tour with the Royal Navy said that the immediate focus on giving brand new Ensign's a division or other leadership responsibilty was a big detriment to learning how to drive and fight a ship. Apparently the RN gives their new ship drivers about 7 months to learn seamanship before they even thought of giving them a division or other leadership responsibilities.

I have served under a lot of great SWOs as well as a fare share of turds and I have learned much from both groups, filling the proverbial "good" and "bad" bags we learned from the Academy. There is no place for the bad examples of leadership mentioned in this thread and it starts from the top down

I have served with plenty of SWO's and there were plenty who were decent guys and gals. While they all were very proud of their SWO pin and many expressed pride in being able to fight and drive a ship only two wanted to go back for another tour. All of the others expressed relief that they were away from SWO-dom and either got out of the Navy or switched designators. That is the complete opposite of my fellow aviators who given the chance would love to do another squadron tour.

 

[SWO Bubba]

I felt there was a lot of good, honest stuff in your post, but I wanted to specifically address the issue above. This seems to be a misconception that comes up on here every time we have a SWO discussion. The rebuttal from the SWOs always seems to be: "well, we're better leaders because we're divos from the get go".

Pags - you mean I had a misconception of a community I'm not even a part of? You're kidding!! I'm laying the sarcasm on thick - sorry. :icon_mi_1

Great point and thanks for the feedback. I didn't state my point as clearly as I had intended. What I meant to drive home is that I think SWO Junior Officers feel a lot more heat from the top down earlier in their career because they are responsible for their divisions right away. For SWOs, leading and managing a division or department brings pointed comments from your boss if things are not going well. That's were the cruciable can break people and cause them to revert to piss poor leadership practices. This happens earlier in their career compared to aviators I think is directly related to the misconceptions of SWOs eating their young

That's not to say aviator JOs don't feel pressure/stress. The stakes for aviators are life and death from day one and that is a level of stress/pressure SWOs don't often experience. My perception is that stress induced from the inherent danger of flying a bucket of bolts is largely contained to the pilot/crew/aircraft and not necessarily a top-down chest poke.

Bottom line - Good leadership practices are equally applicable to all communities as well as the civilian world.

 

[ChunksJR]

Here's the deal - no matter what community you are in, roughly a third will be great, a third will be plugging along and a third will be more or less worthless.

Respectfully disagree. 33% of aviators are not worthless. Maybe poor leaders, but damn better NOT be a poor copilot.

For Aviators, this crucible doesn't come until much later in their careers, usually in their Department Head tours.

Again, respectfully disagree. As an ensign, I had a division of 124. Sure it was because everyone in the squadron was deployed ISO OIF, but hey, still had it. Actually, Senior Chief had it. But I was there to sign the evals!!!

Now, on my disassociated tour, I have 32 on the way to 240 next year (V2 division). Sure, instructor duty was tough, but I'd almost rather have 32 enlisted than SNAs

 

[C420sailor]

Sure, instructor duty was tough, but I'd almost rather have 32 enlisted than SNAs

Can't handle us, sir?

 

[SWO Bubba]

Now who is being myopic and parochial?

EXACTLY - same thing I mentioned to Pags. Let's stick to talking about what we know rather than passing judgement in areas we don't know.

Ironically the LT who did the PEP tour with the Royal Navy said that the immediate focus on giving brand new Ensign's a division or other leadership responsibilty was a big detriment to learning how to drive and fight a ship. Apparently the RN gives their new ship drivers about 7 months to learn seamanship before they even thought of giving them a division or other leadership responsibilities.

This goes into the age old debate on whether we should have specialist Officers on our USN ships. The UK and other Navies have Deck Officers, PWOs and Engineers. Those Officers know what specialist path they will be in before they are even commissioned. We have generalist Officers, so an Engineering guy can still assume command of a ship (not the case in the UK where only PWOs and Deck officers assume command). This is a great debate in the SWO community and has been ongoing for decades.

I have served with plenty of SWO's and there were plenty who were decent guys and gals. While they all were very proud of their SWO pin and many expressed pride in being able to fight and drive a ship only two wanted to go back for another tour. All of the others expressed relief that they were away from SWO-dom and either got out of the Navy or switched designators. That is the complete opposite of my fellow aviators who given the chance would love to do another squadron tour.

Ok - great. I can tell you I've talked to hundreds of Junior Officers (in my current job) who are eager to stay in and go to sea. This is really a circular argument not worth jumping into. It is what it is. For the last 30 years, SWOs have averaged about 33% retention past the 5 year mark (once MSRs are complete). Of the remaining 67%, most get out and a good many lat/xfer into other communities that don't access new Ensigns.

Aviators, SWOs and Submariners do great work for our Navy and our Country. The cultures are different and we all chose our paths for different reasons. I think any debate bashing each other is ultimately pointless. We're all on the same team and need each other.

 

[Spekkio]

For the last 30 years, SWOs have averaged about 33% retention past the 5 year mark (once MSRs are complete). Of the remaining 67%, most get out and a good many lat/xfer into other communities that don't access new Ensigns.

I'm curious to know what % of the retention are prior enlisted sailors who are on their way to retirement after their DH tour vs. how many were in their 5th year of service.

 

[Bevo16]

The bottom line is that SWO JO's vote on their community with their feet, and the "parochial and myopic veiws from the Aviators in this thread" were formed by officers by observing the conduct of people in your community.

I understand and appreciate the pride you have in your community, but denying the problems that you have (that cause the low retention) and trying to pass them off as typical for every community (they aren't), is a big contributor the continuing issues.

It's almost like you think we don't still talk to our friends from college who went SWO and compare stories.

 

[ChunksJR]

Can't handle us, sir?

Oh dear. Where's A4s "weeping"???

You know the difference between an O1 and an E1? About 20lbs and a degree son...

 

[Uncle Fester]

I'll see your parochial and myopic views of a community I don't know and raise you, SWO Bubba. I say again: I was a SWO. I voted with my feet, as did every other divvo in my first wardroom (either redes'ed or resigned). I have worn both black shoes and brown, and my worst day in the TRACOM was still better than my best day as a shoe.

The argument over whether your community makes you a better leader is disingenuous and irrelevant. Ensign Fester was a "divvo on day one," after all...so am I therefore a better officer than my fellow aviators who weren't?

There are real and serious morale problems in the Surface Navy, they're by and large being caused by the leadership, which perpetuates the problem unto the next generation, and they're pretty much being rationalized, ignored or given lip service. Whether you realize it or not, your snarky and defensive remarks are a prime exhibit of exactly why the problem's not getting fixed. We don't know what we're talking about, we're just a bunch of lazy aviators, right? What we're saying is - we've seen how SWO's operate, from the inside, working with afloat staffs, embarked CVWs and HSL dets...your community is broke, brother. If you guys won't fix it, it makes no difference to us, as long as the boat's lights stay on and you leave us alone during GQ. But don't say we didn't tell ya.

 

[Pags]

There are real and serious morale problems in the Surface Navy, they're by and large being caused by the leadership, which perpetuates the problem unto the next generation, and they're pretty much being rationalized, ignored or given lip service.

Because the mission is still being accomplished. As long as that still happens, it's just a bunch of JOs bitching. And as we all know, a bitching sailor is a happy sailor.

I think HeyJoe said it in another thread that tyrants are only that from the lower levels of the chain of command. Upper levels sees results and likes them.

 

[scoolbubba]

So you're saying the only way to change SWO culture is a Revolt of the Ensigns?

 

[insanebikerboy]

Words about SWO's

I've kept my tongue about SWO life for the most part since all of my evidence from an officer's perspective is anecdotal, unlike Uncle Fester and others.

But, I was prior enlisted and I actually keep in touch with several guys I used to work with. When I hear similar stories from them about the officers they work for I consider that pretty telling, especially considering they don't see the inner workings of the wardroom.

 

[Pags]

So you're saying the only way to change SWO culture is a Revolt of the Ensigns?

No, because that would be a mutiny and that's not what professional officers do.

Maybe this comes down to professional pride. Most aviators already have a lot of pride in their profession when they get to the fleet. They spent four years of college working to get a flight slot, two years of flight school to get wings, 6+mo of the RAG to learn a fleet aircraft at the most basic level. That's a lot of time invested in the profession and it lends itself to wanting to excel at the next level. Sharp nuggets show up asking for their PQS and do sign offs quickly. They want to know as much as they can. They beg for flights. Crummy nuggets show up and after several months have to be told it would be a good idea to have at least one or two signoffs done.

I knw there are plenty of SWOs out there who are the same way as the sharp nuggets. They bust their butt in college and select SWO out of a desire to lead men at sea and to fight ships. Unfortunately, these young professionals are overshadowed by the dearth of folks who show up to a ship because it's the path of least resistance. And when the unmotivated get to the ship, they have to be force fed everything, including what it means to be a SWO. All of this is learned as OJT, which can be painful as your instructors have their responsibilities, the least of which is an unmotivated ensign who thinks it's inhuman that he has to be at the ship by 0630 for O-Call.

When you're dealing with unmotivated subordinates, being the cool aviator will only get you so far. Sometimes you have to be a stickler for working hours. Sometimes you have to make people stand the watch. Sometimes you have to tell people to sit down, shut up and fly like a professional. Leading people who want to be there makes the job a whole lot easier.

 

[scoolbubba]

Yea, that was tongue in cheek, Pags.