Blackhawk / CRJ-700 Midair

[MIDNJAC]

Take a breath Brett, just asking a question about the state of Army aviation training and what occurs in the 12th. And spare me the lecture on being a CACO, i've been there . . . .

The problem is that a story line that the person at fault was "DEI" was immediately circulated, by the top guy. Without any evidence to support that. And ever since then, lackeys have been grasping at straws to make that prediction true, to include implicating an aviator who wasn't even involved. And then, they tried to suggest that the actual aviator's name wasn't released so that the "DoD could scrub her social media" first. And they came up with some weak ass fucking pic of her on the beach with a friend, and used it as "evidence" that she was a lesbian and thus "of course DEI". My wife has pictures just like that. These 50-60 year old social media addicts are fucking morons, and all of this is fucking disgusting and despicable. Don't stoop to that level Rob, I know you aren't that.

 

[MGoBrew11]

To be fair, I legitimately don’t think @robav8r was insinuating anything overly political. I read his questions in a professional military aviator light. I was a little surprised myself when the unit was described as it was in the media and the hours totals were made public.

 

[MIDNJAC]

To be fair, I legitimately don’t think @robav8r was insinuating anything overly political. I read his questions in a professional military aviator light. I was a little surprised myself when the unit was described as it was in the media and the hours totals were made public.

Yeah I agree, I guess my comment was more related to why he got the response he did

 

[exNavyOffRec]

To be fair, I legitimately don’t think @robav8r was insinuating anything overly political. I read his questions in a professional military aviator light. I was a little surprised myself when the unit was described as it was in the media and the hours totals were made public.

Don't the hours of the pilots involved normally get released, at least in the final reports? I am pretty sure I have seen reports shared where it will say Pilot X had XXXXX total hours with XXXX in the specific airframe involved, or is this just in civilian accident investigations?

 

[Swanee]

Don't the hours of the pilots involved normally get released, at least in the final reports? I am pretty sure I have seen reports shared where it will say Pilot X had XXXXX total hours with XXXX in the specific airframe involved, or is this just in civilian accident investigations?

Yes. That will be in both the Army equivalent reports of the JAGMAN and the SIR.

 

[Brett327]

all of this is fucking disgusting and despicable

☝️

 

[Gatordev]

While I'm not as experienced as any helo guy when it comes to flying aided, I'm genuinely shocked that de-goggling before landing in an environment like that isn't completely standardized. I'd assume that blooming + lack of depth perception would negate a lot of their benefit.

Standardized at heliports or airports? Sure. There’s probably not a panacea for all situations in those environments though.

I think, like a lot of things in aviation, it's best to not get locked into any one doctrine given the dynamic environment that is aviation. I think that's what Hotdogs is saying.

There's a local heliport pad just down the road from my base that I go to all the time and I land there aided every single time even though it's at the intersection of a major interstate and major highway and has restaurant signs all around it. Why? Because there's also an unlit cell tower right at the 90 of the landing pattern/overhead.

There's no one size fits all.

Just curious, is that standard among various LE agencies, or is it personal preference depending on the operating environment? Aren't most LE helo ops single-piloted as well? Thx

Again, it's going to depend on where they operate. A rural environment will be different than an urban one.

Surprised that some of the mods available like white phosphorus aren’t more prevalent to counter. We used some that had better gain control that were great going from middle of no where dark to landing in a soccer field in the middle of a town without a ton of blooming. And that was nearly 20 years ago.

I'm not sure where HELRESWING or HS was at the time, but for the HSL guys, everyone had some form of OMNI-IVs in ANVIS-9s since at least 2001. I flew with -6's in 2002, but that was the last time I used them. I think my fleet squadron had 4 of them for a little bit before they disappeared, but they were just used as spares.

Circa early to mid- 20-teens, the Marines were getting newer OMNI-VI tubes. They were specifically designated as the priority but every so often AIMD or MALS would end up injecting a set to a Navy squadron. I got a pair once right before I retired and they were noticeably nicer.

NAVAIR also started pushing the WP tubes to the V-22 guys "recently" (They were part of the NVG ground school syllabus the last time I went through in 2021).

In the late 20-teens, the CNAFR PM was trying to reequip both -85 and -60 with the lighter-weight HUDs along with a bunch of -56 helmets. I can't remember if he was also trying to get some newer goggles at the time.

 

[RobLyman]

Ay caramba!

The tragedy of loss of life is hard to take. But a close second is observing the "experts" tell their opinions on why it happened and why they are the only ones who know the truth.

Having said that, here I go....

Aircraft: UH-60L Blackhawk. This could have been a VH-60L, but it definitely was not a 60M variant. Wreckage photos do not seem to concur with the "Gold Top" paint scheme assertion, but it is quite possible the unit has aircraft with varying livery. If the aircraft was a 60V conversion, it would have glass cockpit and I believe ADS-B in/out. That's hard to say, since the 60V configuration has been a moving target. The actual configuration of this 60 could be almost anything. As a maintenance test pilot and QC supervisor I had to manage many aircraft configuration changes when the Army moved aircraft from unit to unit. Different aircraft configurations with a company sized unit is not uncommon. I would say more than likely there was no ADS-B IN, and probably only a basic ADS-B OUT which included barometric altitude either directly from the bar-alt or as a pass through from the mode C transponder. Radar video playback showed altitude for the Black Hawk in 100' increments. That means the helicopter could be 150'-249' while reading 200' on the ATC display. The video I saw, after being paused several times, showed the helicopter altitude going from 200', to 300', and then back to 200' just before impact, which would be 150'-249' MSL. This assumes the correct altimeter setting was used and there was no error in the altimeter itself. Of course the Black Hawk was probably using their radar altimeter to fly, so they probably didn't pay attention to what the bar-alt read at all. TLDR: What the altitude the ATC saw may inaccurately represent the actual altitude of the Black Hawk at the time of the collision.

Crew: a 1000 hour CW2 instructor pilot is not "very experienced". Even the best CW2s I flew with lacked the full wisdom to realized that they don't know everything. Conducting an NVG APART with a 450-500 hour copilot can make this a relatively risking mission. A barely experienced IP with a junior (flight time wise) PC who is higher rank (maybe their company commander) is not optimal. It's done, but it is not optimal. An APART requires flight in both the left and right seat. Depending on how the day and instrument APARTS were flown, the NVG eval could have been done with the instructor in either seat. This would have been indicated on the risk assessment. Doing an NVG APART in a congested area like this would require the IP to be WAY ahead of the aircraft, just in case something unusual happened. If this route were part of their normal mission, it would be a necessary part of their APART. Can this PC safely get me through this airspace at night? According to the TC 1-1520-237-10, there is no requirement for a 2nd crew chief under NVG. In fact, some units allow NVG flights that originate and end at an airport to fly with just 2 pilots. It's part of the risk assessment worksheet and hopefully this was at least discussed during the brief.

There are some really good videos out on YouTube, as well as some TERRIBLE ones. Look for some that have a simulation done by expert pilots. One particular, was done with NVG lighting. It scared the crap out of me! The narrator was talking about the how difficult the RJ was to see. He even said, "I didn't have a CRJ, so I used another (bigger) aircraft in the simulation." While talking, I saw a "light" coming from left to right (from Black Hawk cockpit). It barely moved due to constant bearing decreasing range. I didn't realize how close the "light" was until the entire jet filled the screen. I have a lot of time flying Seahawks and Black Hawks. I have had a lot of bird strikes and even a couple of close calls with near mid airs. I know what a close call looks like. The simulation I saw was scary. I knew where to look. I knew what to expect. I saw a faint position light, but I was still surprised at the close proximity and the lack of reaction time. I'll try to link to the video.

Another simulation video showed the CRJ doing the circling approach. With the PAPI on glide slope, the CRJ was between 200-250' at the collision location. IMO, this video showed that if the Black Hawk had actually been 300' or more, they MIGHT have passed above the CRJ on approach glide path. It DEFINITELY showed that there was not adequate vertical separation, whether the H-60 was at their correct altitude or not.

The Black Hawk crew reported visual (without saying "Oh shit!" immediately). I find it extremely hard to believe they had a visual of the collision aircraft. After all, who would see an aircraft and deliberately not avoid a collision? Just my opinion, but I think they had a visual on the wrong aircraft. But, the NVG simulation I mentioned above indicates that they could have had visual on the collision aircraft and thought the CRJ was much further away due to CBDR.

Navy Jax has helos transition 300' and below along the east shore of the St Johns River. This puts you below glide slope on the approach end of runway 28. I have done this transition for most of my flying career and can't remember a single time NAS Jax relied only on vertical separation. I do remember several times being asked to circle south of the Buckman Bridge for traffic spacing. Is the Potomac too narrow to allow for this? Also...where would the Black Hawk gone to pass behind the CRJ had they really had them in sight? Over the city at 200'? Yikes. Looking at the charts there are several towers up to 400-450' in that area. Hit a plane or hit a tower? Hmmm

There are so many other factors, but I just wanted to cover the ones that seem to be represented inaccurately the most and for which I have personal experience.



**** Sorry, I tried to find the two videos I was talking about and couldn't find them. I'll add a post if I find them later

Most of you know my background, but here it is in a nutshell:

Army IP, IE, MTP, ME
3000+ hours in Seahawk and Black Hawk
HAC or PC all of the following... SH-60B, SH-60F, HH-60H, UH-60A/L/M, HH-60M, etc.. as well as various foreign sales 60 configurations)
Commercial CFI, CFII Helo
Commercial Fixed Wing Single/Multi CFI & CFII

 

[MGoBrew11]

Great post @RobLyman. The helicopter crew has taken a lot of heat in the public and like you, I have also wondered about the wisdom of them having been cleared through the area in the first place when ATC could have ostensibly just told them to hold for incoming traffic.

 

[Flash]

Was also a bit surprised by the lack for flight hours for what is a VIP unit. I know the Army culture is different and commissioned O's really don't fly as much but even for the WO IP 1000 hrs doesn't seem like a lot.

No, that would be associated with base level fleet quals (AC commander). Typically HMX guys are well over 1-1.5k depending on T/M/S if they’re going there from their first squadron. Additionally, their DHs are typically post-fleet DH (everything in HMX is essentially shifted one pay grade right) so you’re talking in the realm of 2 to well over 3k in some cases.

The US Army battalion and USAF's 1st Helicopter Squadron are VIP support squadrons but they aren't as selective as HMX-1, I think the USAF squadron is just a 'regular' squadron where you can get assigned to at any time in your career to include as a first tour.

 

[robav8r]

Ay caramba!

The tragedy of loss of life is hard to take. But a close second is observing the "experts" tell their opinions on why it happened and why they are the only ones who know the truth.

Having said that, here I go....

Aircraft: UH-60L Blackhawk. This could have been a VH-60L, but it definitely was not a 60M variant. Wreckage photos do not seem to concur with the "Gold Top" paint scheme assertion, but it is quite possible the unit has aircraft with varying livery. If the aircraft was a 60V conversion, it would have glass cockpit and I believe ADS-B in/out. That's hard to say, since the 60V configuration has been a moving target. The actual configuration of this 60 could be almost anything. As a maintenance test pilot and QC supervisor I had to manage many aircraft configuration changes when the Army moved aircraft from unit to unit. Different aircraft configurations with a company sized unit is not uncommon. I would say more than likely there was no ADS-B IN, and probably only a basic ADS-B OUT which included barometric altitude either directly from the bar-alt or as a pass through from the mode C transponder. Radar video playback showed altitude for the Black Hawk in 100' increments. That means the helicopter could be 150'-249' while reading 200' on the ATC display. The video I saw, after being paused several times, showed the helicopter altitude going from 200', to 300', and then back to 200' just before impact, which would be 150'-249' MSL. This assumes the correct altimeter setting was used and there was no error in the altimeter itself. Of course the Black Hawk was probably using their radar altimeter to fly, so they probably didn't pay attention to what the bar-alt read at all. TLDR: What the altitude the ATC saw may inaccurately represent the actual altitude of the Black Hawk at the time of the collision.

Crew: a 1000 hour CW2 instructor pilot is not "very experienced". Even the best CW2s I flew with lacked the full wisdom to realized that they don't know everything. Conducting an NVG APART with a 450-500 hour copilot can make this a relatively risking mission. A barely experienced IP with a junior (flight time wise) PC who is higher rank (maybe their company commander) is not optimal. It's done, but it is not optimal. An APART requires flight in both the left and right seat. Depending on how the day and instrument APARTS were flown, the NVG eval could have been done with the instructor in either seat. This would have been indicated on the risk assessment. Doing an NVG APART in a congested area like this would require the IP to be WAY ahead of the aircraft, just in case something unusual happened. If this route were part of their normal mission, it would be a necessary part of their APART. Can this PC safely get me through this airspace at night? According to the TC 1-1520-237-10, there is no requirement for a 2nd crew chief under NVG. In fact, some units allow NVG flights that originate and end at an airport to fly with just 2 pilots. It's part of the risk assessment worksheet and hopefully this was at least discussed during the brief.

There are some really good videos out on YouTube, as well as some TERRIBLE ones. Look for some that have a simulation done by expert pilots. One particular, was done with NVG lighting. It scared the crap out of me! The narrator was talking about the how difficult the RJ was to see. He even said, "I didn't have a CRJ, so I used another (bigger) aircraft in the simulation." While talking, I saw a "light" coming from left to right (from Black Hawk cockpit). It barely moved due to constant bearing decreasing range. I didn't realize how close the "light" was until the entire jet filled the screen. I have a lot of time flying Seahawks and Black Hawks. I have had a lot of bird strikes and even a couple of close calls with near mid airs. I know what a close call looks like. The simulation I saw was scary. I knew where to look. I knew what to expect. I saw a faint position light, but I was still surprised at the close proximity and the lack of reaction time. I'll try to link to the video.

Another simulation video showed the CRJ doing the circling approach. With the PAPI on glide slope, the CRJ was between 200-250' at the collision location. IMO, this video showed that if the Black Hawk had actually been 300' or more, they MIGHT have passed above the CRJ on approach glide path. It DEFINITELY showed that there was not adequate vertical separation, whether the H-60 was at their correct altitude or not.

The Black Hawk crew reported visual (without saying "Oh shit!" immediately). I find it extremely hard to believe they had a visual of the collision aircraft. After all, who would see an aircraft and deliberately not avoid a collision? Just my opinion, but I think they had a visual on the wrong aircraft. But, the NVG simulation I mentioned above indicates that they could have had visual on the collision aircraft and thought the CRJ was much further away due to CBDR.

Navy Jax has helos transition 300' and below along the east shore of the St Johns River. This puts you below glide slope on the approach end of runway 28. I have done this transition for most of my flying career and can't remember a single time NAS Jax relied only on vertical separation. I do remember several times being asked to circle south of the Buckman Bridge for traffic spacing. Is the Potomac too narrow to allow for this? Also...where would the Black Hawk gone to pass behind the CRJ had they really had them in sight? Over the city at 200'? Yikes. Looking at the charts there are several towers up to 400-450' in that area. Hit a plane or hit a tower? Hmmm

There are so many other factors, but I just wanted to cover the ones that seem to be represented inaccurately the most and for which I have personal experience.



**** Sorry, I tried to find the two videos I was talking about and couldn't find them. I'll add a post if I find them later

Most of you know my background, but here it is in a nutshell:

Army IP, IE, MTP, ME
3000+ hours in Seahawk and Black Hawk
HAC or PC all of the following... SH-60B, SH-60F, HH-60H, UH-60A/L/M, HH-60M, etc.. as well as various foreign sales 60 configurations)
Commercial CFI, CFII Helo
Commercial Fixed Wing Single/Multi CFI & CFII

@RobLyman any more info you can share about the 12th Aviation Battalion and their training and readiness requirements?

 

[ChuckMK23]

USAF's 1st Helicopter Squadron are VIP support squadrons but they aren't as selective as HMX-1, I think the USAF squadron is just a 'regular' squadron where you can get assigned to at any time in your career to include as a first tour.

+1. I have 2 colleagues in my unit that were both 1st HS. Normal assignment rotation for folks in the UH-1N community. (Typically ICBM support/security).

 

[wink]

+1. I have 2 colleagues in my unit that were both 1st HS. Normal assignment rotation for folks in the UH-1N community. (Typically ICBM support/security).

Yep. Was an offer following my nephew's tour flying ICBM support/security. Instead, chose Minot

 

[Flash]

Yep. Was an offer following my nephew's tour flying ICBM support/security. Instead, chose Minot

Why not?!

 

[phrogdriver]

Just curious, is that standard among various LE agencies, or is it personal preference depending on the operating environment? Aren't most LE helo ops single-piloted as well? Thx

We didn't even have goggles, but our op area was almost entirely urban. YMMV.

Yes. The left seat is a Tactical Flight Officer who operates the sensors.