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Blackhawk / CRJ-700 Midair

FLGUY

FLGUY

“Technique only”
pilot
Contributor
Sonog said:
There was nothing inherently wrong about DEI until people started using it as a racist dog whistle. I am sure there are plenty of examples of companies or programs that did not fairly or effectively execute their policies, but equating its support with the people who want it wiped off the face of the earth is a little extreme. For example, I don't think there is anyone on this site that would admit lack of diversity is a big problem in Naval Aviation. With that said, no one who supports diversity effort in bringing more women and POC to the cockpit actually thinks the Naval Aviation enterprise would dismiss of merit or ability (obviously) altogether in order to achieve said goals. But back to your point, the term is cursed and ruined now, but as leaders we need to continue to value diversity, equity, and inclusion at all levels. It’s not an easy problem, but that doesn't mean it should be abandoned.
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People can be against the corporatized and (as you stated) occasionally unfairly executed DEI policies that many companies used for years under the guise of “fixing historical discrimination” or affirmative action, while also being in strong support for the fundamental ideas of having a diverse and inclusive work environment.

Sure, shitty racist people hurl the term DEI out at anything these days while talking completely out of their ass. We all know them, and we all want them to shut the fuck up. But let not act like there wasn’t shitty people across the isle who loved using the DEI cudgel to accost and ridicule those who committed the heinous act of…..being born a straight white man.

You don’t support and assist marginalized communities by tearing those ”in the majority” down. You do it by lifting the marginalized up, making them feel welcome, and pouring resources into these communities.
 
gparks1989

gparks1989

Well-Known Member
pilot
Contributor
Fallonflyr said:
Reminds me of the time I was on a RJ jumpseat and the 50 year cap gave me shit for working for a “woke” company that wouldn’t hire him with his 12,000 hours of awesomeness because he wasn’t black, gay, or female. I asked him if he had a collage degree and he said no, he didn’t have time for that shit. At the time a college degree was one of the minimum requirements to get an interview.
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Funnily enough, I came to the realization that the reaction against woke, DEI, whatever had reached its peak of stupidity when someone in the process of applying to the airlines said they were looking at Southwest in favor of United because the latter was "woke." A truly remarkable thing to utter.
 
Sonog

Sonog

Well-Known Member
pilot
FLGUY said:
People can be against the corporatized and (as you stated) occasionally unfairly executed DEI policies that many companies used for years under the guise of “fixing historical discrimination” or affirmative action, while also being in strong support for the fundamental ideas of having a diverse and inclusive work environment.

Sure, shitty racist people hurl the term DEI out at anything these days while talking completely out of their ass. We all know them, and we all want them to shut the fuck up. But let not act like there wasn’t shitty people across the isle who loved using the DEI cudgel to accost and ridicule those who committed the heinous act of…..being born a straight white man.

You don’t support and assist marginalized communities by tearing those ”in the majority” down. You do it by lifting the marginalized up, making them feel welcome, and pouring resources into these communities.
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We saw things differently then. Can you give an example of a legit organization taking effort to tear the white male down? I'm not being combative, I want to understand this nationwide backlash better just than saying "rAciSts".

But back to your first paragraph... that would have been a much more sane principle for the current administration to base their approach on, but that would sane. I glimpsed at the comments section (mistake) on a WSJ editorial board piece on DEI the other day and the top liked comment said "DEI is the greatest evil this country has seen in the last 50 years"
 
sevenhelmet

sevenhelmet

Low calorie attack from the Heartland
pilot
Sonog said:
We saw things differently then. Can you give an example of a legit organization taking effort to tear the white male down? I'm not being combative, I want to understand this nationwide backlash better just than saying "rAciSts".

But back to your first paragraph... that would have been a much more sane principle for the current administration to base their approach on, but that would sane. I glimpsed at the comments section (mistake) on a WSJ editorial board piece on DEI the other day and the top liked comment said "DEI is the greatest evil this country has seen in the last 50 years"
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Fair ask, and fair point. There is a buried struggle here that is hard to talk about without people losing their ever-loving minds. Some people on both sides seem to view life as a zero-sum game. That notion leads to a lot of misunderstandings, ranging from “DEI is evil” to “only white people are racist.” Both ideas excuse behaviors that are destructive to societal cohesion.

Behind all of this is what feels like a psyop to divide us into little groups and pit us against each other. That is a clear win for politicians and corporations that thrive on emotion and memetics (e.g. media, tech). I don’t like any of that, but DEI is not responsible, even if it was born in the overall trend.

I don’t think DEI is inherently evil, nor do I think it’s particularly good. I think it’s a rebranding of existing concepts and framework that- despite any merits DEI has- gets used as a wedge issue by the “winners”, above. Meanwhile the country becomes less unified.

Ad hominem, impetum. Blindfolded and standing by for the firing squad.
 
FLGUY

FLGUY

“Technique only”
pilot
Contributor
sevenhelmet said:
Fair ask, and fair point. There is a buried struggle here that is hard to talk about without people losing their ever-loving minds. Some people on both sides seem to view life as a zero-sum game. That notion leads to a lot of misunderstandings, ranging from “DEI is evil” to “only white people are racist.” Both ideas excuse behaviors that are destructive to societal cohesion.

Behind all of this is what feels like a psyop to divide us into little groups and pit us against each other. That is a clear win for politicians and corporations that thrive on emotion and memetics (e.g. media, tech). I don’t like any of that, but DEI is not responsible, even if it was born in the overall trend.

I don’t think DEI is inherently evil, nor do I think it’s particularly good. I think it’s a rebranding of existing concepts and framework that- despite any merits DEI has- gets used as a wedge issue by the “winners”, above. Meanwhile the country becomes less unified.

Ad hominem, impetum. Blindfolded and standing by for the firing squad.
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I wish I could like this a thousand times. Despite things getting heated in this thread, I must say you do a great job of trying to be less partisan, and realize that both ends of the political spectrum are capable of really shitty behavior, whilst explaining the perspectives of both sides really well.
 
FLGUY

FLGUY

“Technique only”
pilot
Contributor
Sonog said:
We saw things differently then. Can you give an example of a legit organization taking effort to tear the white male down? I'm not being combative, I want to understand this nationwide backlash better just than saying "rAciSts".

But back to your first paragraph... that would have been a much more sane principle for the current administration to base their approach on, but that would sane. I glimpsed at the comments section (mistake) on a WSJ editorial board piece on DEI the other day and the top liked comment said "DEI is the greatest evil this country has seen in the last 50 years"
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Well, for starters, race based college admissions. I can understand the intent and can even empathize with it, but that’s a pretty clean example of taking from one group to give to another. There shouldn’t be a higher bar to pass/limited quotas for someone who’s White or Asian, for example. It doesn’t have to be a zero-sum game. Fix the issue way earlier by targeting marginalized communities and pouring resources and attention into them in a way that puts them on a level playing field by the time they’re applying for college. The Supreme Court handled this already, but it’s worth mentioning.

Second, (and to give you a more appropriate example of it happening in corporate America), was the leak from a training video put on by Coca-Cola a few years back. Said video cited Robin DiAngelo, and stated that “To be less white is to be less oppressive, arrogant, ignorant”. The video wasn’t required reading, but was hosted by the company on a training course to apparently “help build an inclusive workspace”. The fact that that was ever approved in the first place, and that Coca-Cola felt comfortable hosting it, speaks to a profoundly problematic sentiment held by the worst of people in the DEI space and in society.

At the end of the day I just want us to live in a world where equality (not equity) is achieved, all people have equality of opportunity, we celebrate our cultural differences while being unified as humans, and we don’t bring anybody down to build someone else up.
 
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Sonog

Sonog

Well-Known Member
pilot
FLGUY said:
Well, for starters, race based college admissions. I can understand the intent and can even empathize with it, but that’s a pretty clean example of taking from one group to give to another. There shouldn’t be a higher bar to pass/limited quotas for someone who’s White or Asian, for example. It doesn’t have to be a zero-sum game. Fix the issue way earlier by targeting marginalized communities and pouring resources and attention into them in a way that puts them on a level playing field by the time they’re applying for college. The Supreme Court handled this already, but it’s worth mentioning.

Second, (and to give you a more appropriate example of it happening in corporate America), was the leak from a training video put on by Coca-Cola a few years back. Said video cited Robin DiAngelo, and stated that “To be less white is to be less oppressive, arrogant, ignorant”. The video wasn’t required reading, but was hosted by the company on a training course to apparently “help build an inclusive workspace”. The fact that that was ever approved in the first place, and that Coca-Cola felt comfortable hosting it, speaks to a profoundly problematic sentiment held by the worst of people in the DEI space and in society.

At the end of the day I just want us to live in a world where equality (not equity) is achieved, all people have equality of opportunity, we celebrate our cultural differences while being unified as humans, and we don’t bring anybody down to build someone else up.
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Bolded line 1: I think this is the logical mindset that needs to be embraced by this nation's leadership. I always understood this to be the main focus of most DEI programs, as opposed to hiring quotas.

Bolded line 2: We will not get to true equality passively, hence the efforts on equity. Marginalized groups, on the macro level, have many disadvantages whose origins can be traced back just a few decades. The ole bootstrap method can only get people so far. Affirmative action, race admissions, etc. are a means to an end. I get the controversy here, and I think this is where the most interesting dialogue resides. I think we'll leave this sub-thread of discussion at that- to keep this from spirally into an argument over an extremely complicated, nuanced issue and taking away from the core thread discussion.

Cheers.
 
FLGUY

FLGUY

“Technique only”
pilot
Contributor
Sonog said:
Bolded line 2: We will not get to true equality passively, hence the efforts on equity. Marginalized groups, on the macro level, have many disadvantages whose origins can be traced back just a few decades. The ole bootstrap method can only get people so far. Affirmative action, race admissions, etc. are a means to an end. I get the controversy here, and I think this is where the most interesting dialogue resides. I think we'll leave this sub-thread of discussion at that- to keep this from spirally into an argument over an extremely complicated, nuanced issue and taking away from the core thread discussion.

Cheers.
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I agree that we won’t get there passively, even though I wish that we could just lay out fair and equal policies and let the results manifest downstream. However, the way that we achieve the end goal (and why some people think equity instead of just equality is the key) is where I think the largest bit of nuance lies. I agree something needs to be done, I just want whatever solution we collectively come up with to be something that doesn’t marginalize anybody, regardless of however slight the marginalization may be.

Thanks for hearing me out. Having these discussions is IMO the antidote to the chaos that is modern day political discussions.

Cheers as well!
 
mmx1

mmx1

Woof!
pilot
Contributor
Griz882 said:
Getting this topic back on track…it looks like the NTSB is recommending the FAA close the low altitude helicopter route that went past DCA. A local source tells me it will probably be bumped west a bit to follow I-295.

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Closed when 33/15 is in use, not all the time. Did also recommend the creation of an alternate route instead of holding traffic while the runway is in use.

 
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