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Books on ACM

Schnugg

It's gettin' a bit dramatic 'round here...
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
Stay out out of phase, use God's G and when in doubt put your lift vector on the bogey.

But the #1 rule: don't lose sight. Nothing sweeter than fighting a guy, putting the sun dot on him and watching him, turn hard, turn hard...then all of a sudden.....arcing, arcing...a "forlorn blind call" and ....that's a kill KIO.
 

Fly Navy

...Great Job!
pilot
Super Moderator
Contributor
Schnugg said:
when in doubt put your lift vector on the bogey.

In my extremely limited experience, that's my favorite. "Sh!t, I don't know what to do here.... lift vector on and pull!"
 

HeyJoe

Fly Navy! ...or USMC
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Fly Navy said:
In my extremely limited experience, that's my favorite. "Sh!t, I don't know what to do here.... lift vector on and pull!"

Works in most cases unless you're about to break the ACM bubble....then you'll read about it
 

A4sForever

BTDT OLD GUY
pilot
Contributor
All good stuff joe and schnugg ... with one slight modification:

heyjoe said:
...Clean your visor, take care of your visor (no scratches)


Now while I realize that it may be de rigueur to wear your visor these days --- and understand that I am not promoting anything that goes against NATOPS, SOP, or your personal relationship with God --- most fellows I flew with and against (including moi) --- at least those who picked up the "bogey" or "bandit" early and consistently --- kept their visors clean and pristine by not wearing them when eyeballing the sky. We put them ... up.

Opinion: A visor obviously has it's place in Aviation. In a visual search of the sky --- it's another piece of "plexi" that you have to look through to see into the great beyond .... .... but then, that is when we had to rely primarily on the Mk1 Mod0 eyeball for a "talley". :icon_smil
 

HeyJoe

Fly Navy! ...or USMC
None
Super Moderator
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Visor up or down...it depends

A4sForever said:
All good stuff joe and schnugg ... with one slight modification:




Now while I realize that it may be de rigueur to wear your visor these days --- and understand that I am not promoting anything that goes against NATOPS, SOP, or your personal relationship with God --- most fellows I flew with and against (including moi) --- at least those who picked up the "bogey" or "bandit" early and consistently --- kept their visors clean and pristine by not wearing them when eyeballing the sky. We put them ... up.

Opinion: A visor obviously has it's place in Aviation. In a visual search of the sky --- it's another piece of "plexi" that you have to look through to see into the great beyond .... .... but then, that is when we had to rely primarily on the Mk1 Mod0 eyeball for a "talley". :icon_smil


"Back in the day", I'd agree visor up, but since you left the cockpit, JHMCS (Joint Helmet Mounted Cueing System) has arrived for the F/A-18 (E/F front seat already done and used in combat with C installs underway and D & F back seats starting next year). So if you find yourself in a "knifefight in a phonebooth"...i.e. a single circle fight with a HMS equipped MiG-29 or Su-27 with nasty R-73s (NATO name: AA-11 Archer) slung under their wings, you'll want your JHMCS visor down so you get the first shot with your AIM-9X with90 degree+ off boresight capability. Otherwise, you better have some sweet expendables and one hell of a last ditch maneuver in your hip pocket because they will have the "hammer down" and are not bothered by hinderance of ROE to cue and verify their seeker head position. So, visor down...and keep it pristine because you don't want to know what they cost!

For rotorheads, you're next. Sat with AH-1Z OT pilots last night after their first flight and they're working through issues in getting a latest generation HMSD in the Zulu. JSF is also slated to IOC with a HMD similar to JHMCS (same firm is building both helmets) and the CH-53K (E follow-on) is also planning to baseline with one. HUDs will be on your head from now on.
 

A4sForever

BTDT OLD GUY
pilot
Contributor
^ God, I love technology .... especially when it's ours. :) GIMME' one of them visors !!!


heyjoe said:
...you better have some sweet expendables and one hell of a last dirch maneuver in your hip pocket ...

Ouch!! You've cut me deeply, Joe. Of course, I had one hell of a last ditch maneuver in my hip pocket .... :) ..... in fact it was an award-winning "last ditch". It became highly developed as unfortunately I had to use it all too often when working against the pretty young(er) boys in their pretty young(er) jets. ;)

 

Catmando

Keep your knots up.
pilot
Super Moderator
Contributor
brd2881 said:
I guess its easiest put that when you are flying really slow to try to flush your opponent out in front of you, you can't deflect your ailerons to turn the jet because you would immediate stall the wings and depart and then have to pick up speed or fall out of the sky to recover...this makes you vulnerable. You use the rudders to turn the jet in when fight gets slow or when you want to "pirouhette (sp) the jet" to turn your jet on a dime in slow flight. Skillful use of the rudders in ACM type environment is not so easy to come by..kind of like an artform...guys with experience do it well..(i.e, not me)...there are many other situations which call for use of rudder as well...but I have yet to perform or try them in ACM.

Good summation.

Generally, as a rule of thumb in ACM, as the angle of attack (AOA) increases, it is necessary to use proportionately more rudder and less aileron. At very high AOA, the stick has to be completely neutral, laterally. Lateral stick movement at high AOA induces adverse yaw, if not a violent departure.

Therefore, at very high AOA, all maneuvering had to be done strictly with rudder.

Many experienced ACM pilots used to hold the stick centered, gripping it with both arms, so they couldn't accidentally move it laterally. AOA, speed and G were controlled with easy fore and aft stick, and all turns and maneuvers were done solely with hard rudder input.

It was indeed an art form. Few could do it adequately, and even fewer could teach it. It only came from a lot of practice, a good understanding of the aircraft's aerodynamics, and a certain amount of intelligent fortitude.

There was one interesting maneuver that a few expert F-4 pilots used to do (although it didn't work on other aircraft all that well) that defied all logic, but worked.

They would load up; say in a port turn – high G and high AOA – and wanted to reverse quickly to starboard. The normal way to do that would be hard right rudder to turn right. But they would intentionally use not right rudder, but full LEFT lateral stick to turn RIGHT. At high AOA, this caused the right wing to stall, and the aircraft would snap roll violently to the right with the left stick input.

It was a risky if not downright dangerous maneuver. But it was an absolutely awesome maneuver when done well. Few would try it, and even fewer could do it well. But it was a very valuable, if not the best maneuver in certain desperate life and death situations . . .. if it worked. (Warning: It didn't work in other aircraft for me, and please never try this at home - unless you have a strong desire to spin into the mud.)
 

Catmando

Keep your knots up.
pilot
Super Moderator
Contributor
heyjoe said:
[...]
Speed is life

[...]

I couldn't agree more. And more speed equals more life.

However, I always enjoyed and respected Navy Ace RO, Willie Driscoll's famous quote: " Speed is the cushion of sloppiness."

And he was right. What he was talking about was "energy management." You should be at the optimum speed for what you want to accomplish – not too slow, but also, not too fast to do it right. He was correctly advocating precision energy management.


Me, I could never get that "precise" in ACM so I almost always, always had extra knots to make up for my sloppiness. And if they were shooting at me, I added even more knots for mom and the kids. It worked for me.

[It should be noted that while excess speed is "life" in combat, it can be "death" when landing long on short and snow-covered runways.]

Anyway, excess ACM speed can quickly be converted into an advantageous and precise vertical . . . always. Ergo, speed is life.
 

Pags

N/A
pilot
As a helo guy, a lot of this stuff is pretty far out in left field, but the parts of it that I do understand are fascinating. Keep it coming.

I've heard a few helo guys talk about getting into fights with jets, i've seen the rules in opnav on it, i saw a few posts about phrogs vs. A-10s, but has anyone done the jet v. helo fight? any thoughts on it?
 

Catmando

Keep your knots up.
pilot
Super Moderator
Contributor
UInavy said:
These are the things that those of us with a modern, completely automated FCS no longer appreciate to the level of our forebearers.

I'm sorry. I was living again in the past.

But I can empathize. I now fly one of those french electric things, with more computers than Fry's, and each one is supposedly smarter and more capable than I.

At least we still sit in the cockpit. Someday we will all be hired - like I was offered by JPL - to fly remotely, behind a computer screen, some distant craft. I hope I never live that long to see that day.
 

Pags

N/A
pilot
UInavy said:
A man with a molotov in the right place at the right time can take out a tank. I, however, prefer to never put my 'tank' in the place where a 'molotov' can touch it without the fear of swift and supremely destructive retribution.

touche.

most of what I heard was from the Navy side of the house; mostly lamenting the lack of a forward firing weapon, leaving them with no options other than to scream on the radio for someone to kill the jet. I'm sure most cobra drivers would have a different take on it.
 

Catmando

Keep your knots up.
pilot
Super Moderator
Contributor
UInavy said:
. . . understanding and feeling of how to fight their aircraft as an extension of themselves and not just a weapons system.

That is the key.

At some point, after flying many hours in a specific aircraft - there sometimes is a sudden epiphany. It is a great feeling, and you know it when it occurs. Not only is the aircraft an extension of you, but also, you are an extension of your aircraft. You both are one, think alike, and operate in perfect harmony and unison.

Unfortunately, this is a very rare occurrence. (especially when computers interfere)

It does not happen to everyone, and it certainly doesn't occur with every model of aircraft you will ever fly. But like all great things, it requires experience, attitude, and practice…and maybe a bit of luck.
 

A4sForever

BTDT OLD GUY
pilot
Contributor
Catmando said:
.......Many ... ACM pilots used to hold the stick centered, gripping it with both arms, so they couldn't accidentally move it laterally. ......all turns and maneuvers were done solely with hard rudder input.

Yeah, I just used to lock my right elbow into my SV-2 and perhaps for that reason --- I never had any inclination to move the stick right or left in high AOA situations. I seldom held the stick with both hands --- was too busy with the PCL, friction lock, and flaps up and down to "lose" my left hand by putting it on the stick. As you said --- rudder, rudder, rudder for turns. Heck, I used rudders for everything in the ACM arena. High-G, no-G, ... didn't matter. The A-4 was great in that regard --- reference the above picture of one of my Dallas mounts and see why ... nice rudder, yes??

Actually, now that you mentioned it, I recall that I used to "lock" my right elbow into my vest on landings, both ship and field, and in instrument procedures. I found it lessened the opportunity to "drift" right or left and it helped me "hold" my heading in a full-blown instument scan. Not too many wing-down or drifting comments in my boat grades ... :)

BTW ... I still do the same thing in the 747 --- I just use the right armrest for the old SV-2 "elbow lock". Other fellows I've flown with (and instructed) have more of a heading control problem than I. I'm in the minority with the armrest "lock" from what I've observed --- but hey, it works. Don't get me wrong --- obviously I made lineup/course corrections --- I just don't tend to "drift" ...

Catmando said:
... There was one interesting maneuver that a few expert F-4 pilots used to do (although it didn't work on other aircraft all that well)

We called it a "tuck-under" roll --- or some called it a "reverse (direction) roll" . Worked like a champ in the A-4 --- with its very high roll rate --- and it worked well the A-6 as well, in actuality. Flapperons and all you know .... :)
 

Brett327

Well-Known Member
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Super Moderator
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A4sForever said:
We called it a "tuck-under" roll --- or some called it a "reverse (direction) roll" . Worked like a champ in the A-4 --- with its very high roll rate --- and it worked well the A-6 as well, in actuality. Flapperons and all you know .... :)
We still use the tuck-under in the Prowler for down low DEFTAC jinks.

Brett
 

A4sForever

BTDT OLD GUY
pilot
Contributor
Brett327 said:
We still use the tuck-under in the Prowler for down low DEFTAC jinks.

Brett

Yeah, that was one of the first defensive air-to-air maneuvers "they" taught in the A-6 RAG. If your timing is right --- it can buy you some time. Question is ... "how did you ever get into that position in the first place and what are you going to do about it now, big shot "??? :)

And a next-of-kin to the "tuck-under" ... when bored, I sometimes would roll into the target the opposite direction; i.e., a 270-360 degree roll the "wrong" way --- usually on raked targets. Target right --- I'd roll in left --- all the way around. I still got my hits --- but it would freak out the STUDs who rode in my backseat --- trying to figure out how "the LT did it" -- bombing, rockets, strafing. I could even hear their heads banging off the canopy on occasion when they braced for a "conventional" roll-in ..... and I rolled in the opposite direction ....

*sigh* ... now you've got me all teary-eyed .... nostalgia ... the sound of a STUD's head cracking off the canopy in a 500 KIAS snap-break --- a.k.a. the good 'ol days. :)
 
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