Books on ACM

[Brett327]

*sigh* ... now you've got me all teary-eyed .... nostalgia ... the sound of a STUD's head cracking off the canopy in a 500 KIAS snap-break --- a.k.a. the good 'ol days.

It works on fleet O-4s as well. I had a skipper that was notorious for shenanigans like that, "Hey, what's that over there...Bam!". You have no idea how much evil can be conjured up in a 4-man crew with selective ICS. 3 v 1 was the preferred tactic there.

Brett

 

[HeyJoe]

As a helo guy, a lot of this stuff is pretty far out in left field, but the parts of it that I do understand are fascinating. Keep it coming.

I've heard a few helo guys talk about getting into fights with jets, i've seen the rules in opnav on it, i saw a few posts about phrogs vs. A-10s, but has anyone done the jet v. helo fight? any thoughts on it?

There were actually a series of Joint tests back in late 70s looking at Jets vs Rotary wing under the Joint Technical Working Group for Munitions Effectiveness. Turns out an "aware" helo (with a bite) can be VERY effective against a fighter. The ability to turn (or rotate nose) on a dime can be worked to an advantage especially if the helo is a Cobra, Apache or Hind with an HMS and turret mounted cannon. Staying low, using terrain masking and always driving towards the attacker gave the pointy nosed guys fits (they don't like to have to point their nose down very long and ground clutter....IR and radar can take away their "long poles"). If the fighter resorts to guys, it's easy for the helo to go out of the vertical plane to spoil his shot and most fighter guys aren't that good at it anyway (got better in OEF though). The H-2 RAG had a regular syllabus in 80s and they surprised the heck out of the fighters that tried to target them (even over water with no terrain to hide).

That said, a strike fighter with a bomb may be the most threat (F-15E took out a hovering helo in Desert Storm and a Tomcat got another helo with a Sidewinder and this beauty:

An A-10 Victory

On February 6, Capt. Robert Swain of the 706th TFS, NAS New Orleans, La., shot down an Iraqi helicopter over central Kuwait in the first-ever A-10 air-to-air victory.

"As I was leaving the target area-after dropping six 500-lb. bombs and firing my two Maverick missiles at tanks--I noticed two black dots running across the desert. They weren't putting up any dust, and yet they were moving fast over the ground."

They were helicopters. On the radio, he told the forward air controller, flying nearby in an OA-10, about the two. The helicopters split up, one heading north, the other south. The OA-10 pilot moved in close to the helicopter flying south, established it was Iraqi, and began to fire marking rockets along its path.

Captain Swain was "cleared in, hot." Diving in, he lined up his target.

"On the first pass, I tried to shoot an AIM-9 heat-seeking missile, but I couldn't get it to lock on [the target]," he said. "So, on the second pass, I fired a long burst of 30-mm from the cannon, and the helicopter looked like it had been hit by a bomb. We tried to identify the type of [helicopter] after we were finished, but it was just a bunch of pieces."

 

[Fly Navy]

30mm dumped into a helo... good christ that must have been a show.

 

[HeyJoe]

30mm dumped into a helo... good christ that must have been a show.

This gives you an idea: We tried to identify the type of [helicopter] after we were finished, but it was just a bunch of pieces

I routinely flew over A-10s in height of Desert Storm that were doing road RECCEs deep in Indian Country. No big deal now, but it was back then. We'd be at 20K because of AAA threat, but they were always at 10K doing a Thach weave over the suspected SCUD routes just hanging it out as if to say "Go ahead, make my day...shoot at me and I'll introduce you to my little friend...." When the SAS team got compromised, had no comms (Bravo Two Zero) and tried to fight their way across hundreds of miles of desert, the A-10s had a field day working over all the Iraqis who were out looking for them. I was airborne for that (taking photos with TARPS pod) and saw them unloading everything but the kitchen sink (A-10s rival the venerable A-1 Skyraider in what they can haul to the fight). And the Air Force was already well into trying to get rid of them before that....what a magnificent piece of hardware that finally got vindicated!

Oops, are we drifting into threadjack territory?

 

[Fly Navy]

And the Air Force was already well into trying to get rid of them before that....what a magnificent piece of hardware that finally got vindicated!

The A-10... an aircraft that has proved its worth over and over again and the AF always seems to want to get rid of it. What a bunch of maroons.

 

[HeyJoe]

That is the key.

At some point, after flying many hours in a specific aircraft - there sometimes is a sudden epiphany. It is a great feeling, and you know it when it occurs. Not only is the aircraft an extension of you, but also, you are an extension of your aircraft. You both are one, think alike, and operate in perfect harmony and unison.

Unfortunately, this is a very rare occurrence. (especially when computers interfere)

It does not happen to everyone, and it certainly doesn't occur with every model of aircraft you will ever fly. But like all great things, it requires experience, attitude, and practice…and maybe a bit of luck.

I totally agree...and that's why books and lectures can only get you so far. It eventually gets instinctive, maybe in 1v1 first, but the zen level is developing such good SA that you can survive the 1vMany scenarios that A4s was alluding to earlier. And not just survive, be ahead of your aircraft and your opponent's as well. Even better is remembering what happened afterwards. ACMI/ACMR/TACTS were great visualization tools, but being an Adversary pilot and being able to debrief what everyone was doing...there's the trick!!

 

[Gatordev]

touche.

most of what I heard was from the Navy side of the house; mostly lamenting the lack of a forward firing weapon, leaving them with no options other than to scream on the radio for someone to kill the jet. I'm sure most cobra drivers would have a different take on it.

Never played w/ a jet (I'm sure it wouldn't have taken them too long to get us), but I've done some low-slow flier intercepts. There fun to do, but what's interesting is that it's all the same principles the more "seasoned" gentleman are discussing here. We only have so much power (and our birds are limited by AOB), so it's all energy management and use of the pedals.

 

[HeyJoe]

The A-10... an aircraft that has proved its worth over and over again and the AF always seems to want to get rid of it. What a bunch of maroons.

Post Desert Storm, I went to Pentagon to be Navy lead (RO) for Air-to-Air Missiles and JHMCS, which were all going Joint. Navy and USAF always had a hard time playing well in sandbox on missile development so Congress put it into law that we would create a Joint Requirements entity and brief them annually on our "Joint" Roadmap. I walked into beginning of that and consequently spent countless hours in their Pentagon spaces as well as at Langley where Air Combat Command was consolidating TAC and SAC under one roof). It was obvious that the Cold War days of Curtis LeMay and the dominance of the bomber were over. The single seat "gray" Eagle mafia was in firm control. Anyone else was a second class citizen (even the viciuos Vipers and the then Dark Green "Mud Hens" or Strike Eagles). It was all about Air Superiority.....they even coined a new phrase, "Air Supremacy" and then "Air Dominance" with the F-15 and the holy grail, the F-22 as the centerpiece. It was against this backdrop that the A-10 kept ending up on the chopping block (note that many were pushed into the Guard and Reserves, which isn't a bad model, but its contributions were woefully undervalued by the leadership).

 

[squeeze]

stuf

So what you're saying is the Air Force is full of fighter guys who are unable to adjust to a changing battlespace due to their ego. Sounds about right.

 

[HeyJoe]

So what you're saying is the Air Force is full of fighter guys who are unable to adjust to a changing battlespace due to their ego. Sounds about right.

I thought they got the message when they changed the F-22 designation to F/A-22, but the latest CSAF dropped the "A" recently after almost 3 years as a F/A-22.

 

[Pags]

words[/I]

Great stuff on the helo v. jet fight.

I can't imagine many a/c fairing very well against 30mm rounds designed to kill tanks, especially not a helo.

The A-10 is definetely a jet that seems to excel at it's job again and again despite the AF's numerous attempts to get rid of it. Seems every time they get close to axing it, another war comes along and the A-10 more than proves its worth, be it in survivability or firepower. If, god forbid, I ever had to fly for the AF, I'd want to fly the Hog.

@ gatordev: low-slow flier intercpets? is that going after other helos, or some fixed wing intercept?

 

[Brett327]

@ gatordev: low-slow flier intercpets? is that going after other helos, or some fixed wing intercept?

Yeah, how's that Penguin work out for A/A?

Brett

 

[HAL Pilot]

I now fly one of those french electric things, with more computers than Fry's, and each one is supposedly smarter and more capable than I.

Like this one?

 

[A4sForever]

So what you're saying is the Air Force is full of fighter guys who are unable to adjust to a changing battlespace due to their ego. Sounds about right.

And that's not a recent development, either. Back in the early 80's the Air Force fighter jocks had evidently forgotten the hard lessons learned in Vietnam. When we flew against them out of Tyndall, Luke, Homestead, or Nellis --- basically anywhere --- the F-15 drivers would initially run in line abreast while "filling the sky" with calls of "Fox-1, Fox-1" at 15-20 miles, look-down, on a small, maneuvering A-4 against ground clutter.

It just wasn't going to happen with the Sparrow missiles then extant and the "judges" usually agreed. So the F-15's would drive in, 4-plane division line abreast, heads in their scopes looking for us and we would roll in & hammer them with our old airplanes and still older bodies. Unless I got blindsided -- and that didn't happen too often -- the only time I was really "challenged" when fighting an F-15 was when I got spit out of the larger fight with an F-15 during a 4 v Many --- two Dallas A4s, two F4s against a gaggle of Eglin F-15's. The two of us ended up mud-wrestling -- rolling around each other, up and down, round-n-round -- until the larger engagement was called off. Neither of us got anything except a quick snap shot.

That particular driver was an O-5 who used to fly F-4s in Vietnam. He knew how to make that F-15 sit up and "speak". He flew it like it's designers may have envisioned. What a surprise, huh ??? During the debrief he kept going on about how much he had enjoyed the "fight". It was like he hadn't seen one for a while ...

In general, however, you couldn't tell the boys with the tailored flight suits and ascots too much ... you just had to show 'em ...

 

[A4sForever]

.....being an Adversary pilot and being able to debrief what everyone was doing...there's the trick!! ...

Man ... you ain't wrong !!! Here's what my kneeboard card usually looked like for the debrief ....