Carrier deployments

[Gatordev]

So you have a pilot who doesn't have experience other than being a squadron pilot. First as a LT which he/she has already done then as a DH which he/she is going to next.
In the meantime, in addition to the FitReps you have a JO who will be getting some of the flights you want your non-super JO's to get before they become Department Heads in a few years.

The SJOs are flying with the non-SJO nugget pilots. How is that eliminating flights for either? The non-SJO pilots wouldn't have anyone else to fly with other than the couple of DHs and the front office, otherwise. Or maybe I'm not understanding what you're saying.

 

[helolumpy]

The SJOs are flying with the non-SJO nugget pilots. How is that eliminating flights for either? The non-SJO pilots wouldn't have anyone else to fly with other than the couple of DHs and the front office, otherwise. Or maybe I'm not understanding what you're saying.

For every mission that a Super JO flies, that is one less mission (and expirience building oportunity) that a first tour LT gets to fly as either a HAC or a Copilot.
Contact time on real sub is at a premium, but every hour the Super JO gets is one less hour than a first tour LT gets. The result is your first tour LTs will have a little bit less expirience than they could when they go off to the FRS, WWS, or TRACOM.

I agree that having the same person as the CAG staffer results in the same problem, but a CAG staffer doesn't fly with the squadron as much as a squadron pilot, while at the same time a CAG staffer is building new expiriences dealing with a wider set of problems.

 

[Gatordev]

For every mission that a Super JO flies, that is one less mission (and expirience building oportunity) that a first tour LT gets to fly as either a HAC or a Copilot.
Contact time on real sub is at a premium, but every hour the Super JO gets is one less hour than a first tour LT gets. The result is your first tour LTs will have a little bit less expirience than they could when they go off to the FRS, WWS, or TRACOM.

But again, if your squadron consists of PQM/H2Ps, SJOs, and DHs, who's losing out on the training/flight? As I explained above, that's where many of the SJOs are going. I don't know if you could say it's the majority of SJOs becaues I don't know if that's true, but it's certainly a large percentage of them. I see them every day.

For an already established squadron, I completely get what you're saying.

 

[hscs]

Jet folk seem to make it work fine - granted, it isn't HAC/copilot, but section lead. CAG reps aren't always as available - even had one that CAG wanted to work in Leemore vice NASNI. In the end, with the SJO you get a pilot that can bring experience back from the FRS/WWS/NSAWC etc to an operational squadron and do not have the 'spool up' time needed for a DH to come back and be able to lead a mission after being on a disassociated sea tour.

 

[insanebikerboy]

For every mission that a Super JO flies, that is one less mission (and expirience building oportunity) that a first tour LT gets to fly as either a HAC or a Copilot.
Contact time on real sub is at a premium, but every hour the Super JO gets is one less hour than a first tour LT gets. The result is your first tour LTs will have a little bit less expirience than they could when they go off to the FRS, WWS, or TRACOM.

I agree that having the same person as the CAG staffer results in the same problem, but a CAG staffer doesn't fly with the squadron as much as a squadron pilot, while at the same time a CAG staffer is building new expiriences dealing with a wider set of problems.

If the first tour JO was flying the flights as a HAC but is replaced by a SJO then he loses out on the training value as a HAC. If the SJO flies the flight as a HAC then the first tour JO can fly as copilot and get training value out of the flight.


If the first tour JO was flying the flights as a HAC but is replaced by a DH/XO/CO, then he loses out on the training value as a HAC. If the DH/XO/CO flies the flight as a HAC then the first tour JO can fly as copilot and get training value out of the flight.


Other than soaking up a fitrep, I don't see the difference in a SJO compared to a DH/XO/CO when it comes to training the junior guys.

 

[LFDtoUSMC]

If the first tour JO was flying the flights as a HAC but is replaced by a SJO then he loses out on the training value as a HAC. If the SJO flies the flight as a HAC then the first tour JO can fly as copilot and get training value out of the flight.


If the first tour JO was flying the flights as a HAC but is replaced by a DH/XO/CO, then he loses out on the training value as a HAC. If the DH/XO/CO flies the flight as a HAC then the first tour JO can fly as copilot and get training value out of the flight.


Other than soaking up a fitrep, I don't see the difference in a SJO compared to a DH/XO/CO when it comes to training the junior guys.

This is probably a stupid question, however. Could the first tour HAC sign for the aircraft and the SJO/DH/XO/CO be the copilot? Would that not get the first tour guy/gal HAC experience AND quality training time? Or is that just not how it works?

 

[insanebikerboy]

This is probably a stupid question, however. Could the first tour HAC sign for the aircraft and the SJO/DH/XO/CO be the copilot? Would that not get the first tour guy/gal HAC experience AND quality training time? Or is that just not how it works?

Yes, that can be done, seniority doesn't necessarily mean they always sign for the aircraft. However, the experience of flying as the HAC is a little different when the senior is acting as the copilot than compared to having a peer or a junior JO in the copilot seat.

 

[LFDtoUSMC]

Gotcha. You need the new HAC to be in full HAC mode. Not slacking and relying on the senior HAC to take over if it all goes to shit.

 

[helolumpy]

This is probably a stupid question, however. Could the first tour HAC sign for the aircraft and the SJO/DH/XO/CO be the copilot? Would that not get the first tour guy/gal HAC experience AND quality training time? Or is that just not how it works?

The senior HAC in the crew will sign for the aircraft. When a pilot checks into a squadron (who was previously a HAC) that pilot will not be given a HAC qual right away (to include new XO's) IOT give that pilot a little bit of time to get reaquinted with the aircraft and mission.

I was paired up with a new XO who just arrived, so while I was a LT, I signed for the aircraft.
I will never forget these words as we were strapping into the aircraft; "don't think of me as the XO, think of me as the PCO, the guy who will be signing your FitRep and getting you your orders..."

 

[Brett327]

The fact that the guy felt the need to verbalize that... kooky. "Hey thanks, commander obvious. Any other pearls of wisdom you'd care to throw my way?"

 

[insanebikerboy]

The senior HAC in the crew will sign for the aircraft.

Which I don't necessarily agree with. My current job has changed my opinion on that as we tend to have the most current and most qualed guy signing for the aircraft, not just the senior guy by default.

 

[MIDNJAC]

Jet folk seem to make it work fine - granted, it isn't HAC/copilot, but section lead. CAG reps aren't always as available - even had one that CAG wanted to work in Leemore vice NASNI. In the end, with the SJO you get a pilot that can bring experience back from the FRS/WWS/NSAWC etc to an operational squadron and do not have the 'spool up' time needed for a DH to come back and be able to lead a mission after being on a disassociated sea tour.

I'm not entirely tracking on what you are making a comparison to here with the jet community....I probably just suck at reading comprehension though. There are very very few super JO's in VFA....basically only transition folks (who aren't really SJO's due to it being their first tour in TMS) and Training O's (who really don't count as they quickly become hinges). You get your level II/III/IV (combat wing/section/division lead) quals as a first tour JO, so there are lots of times when junior guys lead senior guys around, or just other JO's. Not sure how it is done community wide, but in my squadron, the senior guy in the flight is always designated the Mission Commander, regardless of his position in the flight......ie a new level III could be leading around a more senior guy, who will still be MC even though he is -2. Or you could have the training O flying wing and evaluating someone on a level III or IV flight, while the guy getting evaluated is actually designated the MC.

 

[helolumpy]

Which I don't necessarily agree with. My current job has changed my opinion on that as we tend to have the most current and most qualed guy signing for the aircraft, not just the senior guy by default.

If a pilot is not qual'd for the mission then he/she would not be the HAC. For example, for DLQ's if the LT is current and the O-4 isn't, then the O-3 should be signing for the aircraft.
If the senior is getting a check ride (with the exception of the Skipper. The Skipper will always sign for the aircraft since it's his/her squadron and he/she is the one who designates the quals) then the junior, qual'd pilot will sign.

 

[bert]

I always let the junior HAC sign for the aircraft if qualed after my instructor tour (I had plenty of HAC hours). But the older I got the worse I was at pretending to be the copilot. I was honest with guys up-front about it, at least.

 

[insanebikerboy]

For example, for DLQ's if the LT is current and the O-4 isn't, then the O-3 should be signing for the aircraft.

Right, which isn't the senior guy signing, it's the most qual'd/current guy.