Carrier Mishaps

[A4sForever]

Without getting into too much detail, the reality of this accident is that the stud shut an engine down in the break (it was his first pass, not his second) and wound up in an adverse yaw departure when he tried to "come left" as per the LSO's correct call. ....

THAT makes a helluva lot more sense than the other "knowledges" posts on the accident cause .... thanks.

Side note: we had a crew that was left on the beach det @ CUBI as they were too weak to take aboard on that line period. As the LSO, I had suggested the pilot, fresh from the RAG, was not ready for prime time at the ship.

So they came into the break @ CUBI @ 500 KIAS, shut them BOTH down, didn't pop the RAT, and went "boom-boom" with the seats and the aircraft flew itself over to the beach north and opposite Grande Island. The pilot got his Wings pulled and became a priest.

The Skipper (a tool) hated me forever after for the blot on "his" record -- it wasn't his first -- like my recommendation had "caused" the accident. Small penises and fragile egos always amuse me ...

 

[Ken_gone_flying]

It wouldn't take a test pilot grad to have the judgement to make that call. I flew 750 miles to the ship with a chip light. Knew there were issues, ship demanded that the engine swap happen there so I took the aircraft. This was during Enduring Freedom and it was very important to keep our aircraft flying, almost around the clock. In my case, it certainly wasn't a need to get to the beach. The issue with regards to launching with a "downing discreprency" is if something happens, the AC will pay the price for it.

How big were the chips?

 

[Ken_gone_flying]

^ Here's a head's-up: no one cares whether or not you are called "Pinto" ... I know I don't.

Ok. Great.

 

[Flugelman]

, shut them BOTH down, didn't pop the RAT,

Couple of questions... was it that easy to shut an engine down in the Intruder? (I'm making an assumption it was an A-6). Also, I would think it would be SOP to pair a seasoned B/N with a nugget, especially a weak one. Of course, I understand that after things have progressed beyond a certain point, there ain't much the B/N can do.

 

[Mumbles]

I certainly hope i didn't purport to have any "knowledges" of said mishap. I'm just a lowly p-3 puke after all.

 

[A4sForever]

Couple of questions... was it that easy to shut an engine down in the Intruder? (I'm making an assumption it was an A-6). Also, I would think it would be SOP to pair a seasoned B/N with a nugget, especially a weak one. Of course, I understand that after things have progressed beyond a certain point, there ain't much the B/N can do.

Well, it USED to be "easier" to shut 'em both down, shall we say ?? I.e., sitting too high, coming into the break @ warp overdrive and "chopping" the throttles to idle and moving your hand kinda "outboard-sideways" to activate the speedbrake switch ... then they put some kind of retro-fit into the throttle quadrant so the weak pilots would not shut them both down in the break in a moment of 500 KIAS exuberance. I think you had to move them outboard in opposite directions around the stop for fuel cutoff/ignition (after I left the community). The EA-6 probably still has the former "mod"???

Weak pilots and weak(er) B/N's .... normally we tried to balance experience and competence, but it didn't always work. When the two were crewed (not my call), the die was cast. My contribution was stating they should NOT be attempting cyclic ops with the pilot's level of expertise. But the powers that be figured: why should we care if they are on the beach det, yeas??? They can't hurt anyone there, can they??? The pilot was junior and weak, the B/N was senior and weak = "boom-boom" in the break ...

 

[bunk22]

Without getting into too much detail, the reality of this accident is that the stud shut an engine down in the break (it was his first pass, not his second) and wound up in an adverse yaw departure when he tried to "come left" as per the LSO's correct call. The first mishap board assumed both engines were operating properly and it was a 'stuck red' AOA problem. They also tried to assign blame to the civilian maintenance folks for a supposedly stuck or stiff throttle.

We ran the scenario in the sims a hundred times and a hundred times got the same result. We don't believe he ever realized he had an engine shut down and his 'juice' simply ran out in the middle of the groove. When the LSO's started asking for power and then the wave off call, he got enough power from the good engine to get across the ramp, but not enough to avoid the adverse yaw departure. If you want more details, PM me.

Oh, watch the video closely. The person who was supposed to be in a fully donned 'silver suit' in the event of a fire had her upper half off (she said she was getting too hot) and RAN AWAY after the impact. You can see it clearly on the video.

If this is what happened, makes sense, might want to let the guys at LSO school know because as I recall, they never mentioned a single engine....and it was said it was his second pass, the first being waved off. Which doesn't matter anyway but the single engine explains a lot. I know one of the pilots who was in one of the T-2's you see blowing his canopy on the deck. See if he remembers how it went and results from the mishap board.

 

[Catmando]

Well, it USED to be "easier" to shut 'em both down, shall we say ?? I.e., sitting too high, coming into the break @ warp overdrive and "chopping" the throttles to idle and moving your hand kinda "outboard-sideways" to activate the speedbrake switch ...

..."boom-boom" in the break ...

I knew the guy who crashed the first EA-6B (Actually, a good stick, LSO and former F-4 driver, now retired from a major airline.)

He shut 'em both down in the break…"boom-boom, boom-boom!"

 

[Brett327]

I knew the guy who crashed the first EA-6B (Actually, a good stick, LSO and former F-4 driver, now retired from a major airline.)

He shut 'em both down in the break…"boom-boom, boom-boom!"

Yeah, there have since been throttle stop mechanisms installed. You have to go up and around/outboard a bit to get the thing past idle and you can't do it with both throttles at the same time.

Brett

 

[bunk22]

THAT makes a helluva lot more sense than the other "knowledges" posts on the accident cause .... thanks.

Meaning what.......an aircraft can't enter a stall or accelerated stall with both engines? From what I hear in the video, the aircraft was already nose up, in the stall, before getting the come left call. It has been a while but we studied the mishap in both VT-4 (one of our LSO's was a stud on deck as well) and at LSO school and the single engine (as far as I recall) was never mentioned. Why would something key to a mishap be left out like that? Or my memory is just way worse than I thought. Nine years in prop aircraft have beaten my brain into submission.

 

[A4sForever]

Meaning what...........

Meaning that it makes more sense than the other postmortems offered on the thread.

Being a former STUD on the deck during the accident doesn't mean jack. Most STUDs are in a haze during CQ, basic or advanced. And if it WAS S/E (seems like I heard that one; can't remember) then the LSO school was doing a disservice in their debrief. (how did we ever qual as Air Wing LSO's with less platform equipment and without "school"???)

In any case, with that particular STUD, it sounds like it wasn't his day ... no matter what. We're all gonna die, it's just a question of when.

 

[Harrier Dude]

Well, sorry if I added to the confusion about the T-2 mishap, but I remember explicitly what the LSOs told us about it: that it was stuck fast AOA, etc. etc....

It's a lecture and subsequent experience (initial CQ in the TA-4J) that I remember in crystal clear detail.

The fact that they were wrong about the cause of the mishap is a little troubling, but in any event, I learned a lesson from watching that video in time to keep me safe.

Again, sorry for spreading bad gouge.

 

[A4sForever]

Well, sorry if I added to the confusion about the T-2 mishap, but I remember explicitly what the LSOs told us about it..... sorry for spreading bad gouge.

Com'on, guys, throttle back ... everything offered was "O.K." and didn't detract from the thread at all ... all of it: good info, less than good info, average info ... it's all worthwhile and so are the discussions that emanate from it.

Nobody did anything wrong, nobody's got all the answers, and nobody said anything wrong ... we NEED these discussions -- too bad we can't do them in person. Everything's cool, as far as I'm concerned. Or at least it should be ...

Everyone break for Happy Hour ....

 

[bunk22]

Meaning that it makes more sense than the other postmortems offered on the thread.

Being a former STUD on the deck during the accident doesn't mean jack. Most STUDs are in a haze during CQ, basic or advanced. And if it WAS S/E (seems like I heard that one; can't remember) then the LSO school was doing a disservice in their debrief. (how did we ever qual as Air Wing LSO's with less platform equipment and without "school"???)

In any case, with that particular STUD, it sounds like it wasn't his day ... no matter what. We're all gonna die, it's just a question of when.

I gotcha now. The point being, a STUD on the deck.......then later my LSO during my T-2C CQ....not only was there but hopefully would have been fully debriefed on the mishap and ready to pass on lessons learned. Like Harrier Dude said, I've twice gone over in detail this mishap, though years ago, and I never recall the single engine. I agree, not including that HUGE tidbit would be a disservice in their debrief.

 

[Nose]

Gotta say as a former LSO school instructor who has briefed that T-2 mishap many times, I have NEVER heard the single engine piece. Intruder said something about the "first" AMB report, I don't know of any others.

AOA was showing the student fast. Jet was cocked up slow. LSO's said "Work it on speed" (they meant "you are slow"*) which, at the time, was standard phrase (removed from LSO NATOPS after this mishap because it is ambiguous.) There was some discussion about stuck throttles, but IIRC, the LSO school plat analysis showed that he just plain departed. Mishap report dinged the LSOs for the debrief on the ball - but that wasn't that uncommon.

Interested in details on a second MIR.


*For the newbies/unwashed/P-3 drivers, any LSO worth his salt does not look at the AOA info during the day. You use aircraft attitude to determine AOA. You "know" what onspeed looks like, if they are cocked up, they are slow, if they are flat (not flat on the G/S, but flat in attitude) they are fast.