CJCS responds to Rep. Gaetz

[nodropinufaka]

Bullshit. You insult every military parent. But, you are not stupid, you are completely misinformed. I have a son currently serving since 2006. His service and sacrifice is worth it. And I have three nephews who serve(d) and were/are in harm's way (army E5, Ramadi 2003, e.g.). Of course it's worth it! It's NEVER not worth it. And yes, it's my kid, and my sibling's kids. My mother was a Gold Star Wife (married my dad afterward). Her husband's service (KIA 1944) and sacrifice was worth it. The service of his three grandsons is worth it. There is nothing more honorable than to serve your country. I never did, my mother forbid it. I had grants and three jobs while in college; I was determined to get my degree. I was afraid of what my mother might do if I dropped out.

Iraq and Afghanistan occupation was not worth it.

I didn't say serving was not worth it. I said the deaths as a result of the wasted conflicts in Afghanistan and Iraq were not worth it at all.

That isn't an insult to the parents. It is reality. Poor planning by flag officers for an occupation and counter insurgency in countries that didn't want democracy.

It isn't worth it to lose young Americans in conflicts like that.

 

[robav8r]

If the UBCs won't move the needle, people will look for further solutions.

And THAT’S the real issue here, huh?

 

[wink]

Iraq and Afghanistan occupation was not worth it.

I think that is a personal decision for each person who served, and possibly the family that supported them. As a matter of national policy, it will be debate forever. I think it is fair to point out that there has not been a long enough interval to have collected all the facts and analyzed all the affects. For instance, I would think our opponents would have been impressed by the NATO response and the greater coalition in Afghanistan. Lives lost does not tell he whole story.

I have many friends who are combat vets from Vietnam. I am not sure one of them shares your opinion on the value of their service there. From a national security perspective they certainly have a much more nuanced understanding than you.

 

[Pags]

I think that is a personal decision for each person who served, and possibly the family that supported them. As a matter of national policy, it will be debate forever. I think it is fair to point out that there has not been a long enough interval to have collected all the facts and analyzed all the affects. For instance, I would think our opponents would have been impressed by the NATO response and the greater coalition in Afghanistan. Lives lost does not tell he whole story.

I have many friends who are combat vets from Vietnam. I am not sure one of them shares your opinion on the value of their service there. From a national security perspective they certainly have a much more nuanced understanding than you.

Whether or not a war is a "good" war shouldn't have any bearing on the value of service. You can say that a war wasn't useful or a good idea and still value the service that members provided While everyone wants to be the guy fighting the good fight against bad guys not all wars have Nazis and people don't get to pick their war or even have a war. Service is still valued regardless of the type of war or if there isn't a war.

 

[SELRES_AMDO]

I have many friends who are combat vets from Vietnam. I am not sure one of them shares your opinion on the value of their service there. From a national security perspective they certainly have a much more nuanced understanding than you.

Do they? I have multiple friends who served combat tours in Iraq and Afghanistan. Most of them couldn't tell you the first thing about national security.

 

[Griz882]

Iraq and Afghanistan occupation was not worth it.

I didn't say serving was not worth it. I said the deaths as a result of the wasted conflicts in Afghanistan and Iraq were not worth it at all.

That isn't an insult to the parents. It is reality. Poor planning by flag officers for an occupation and counter insurgency in countries that didn't want democracy.

It isn't worth it to lose young Americans in conflicts like that.

Just out of curiosity, what kind of wars/conflicts are worth it? I ask because although today while I honestly fret for the women and children of Afghanistan, I am immensely proud of the fact that for 20 years people like me, and me myself, gave them some measure of freedom and security.

 

[nodropinufaka]

I have many friends who are combat vets from Vietnam. I am not sure one of them shares your opinion on the value of their service there. From a national security perspective they certainly have a much more nuanced understanding than you.

Why would they have a more nuanced understanding? That is an unfair statement. You don't even know me or my background.

 

[Treetop Flyer]

Why would they have a more nuanced understanding? That is an unfair statement. You don't even know me or my background.

I’d say that someone that just claimed that the military preys on poor people to send them off to die, and seemed unaware that a shitload of naval aviators on a naval aviation site have been to Iraq or Afghanistan may not have a very… nuanced view.

 

[nodropinufaka]

Just out of curiosity, what kind of wars/conflicts are worth it? I ask because although today while I honestly fret for the women and children of Afghanistan, I am immensely proud of the fact that for 20 years people like me, and me myself, gave them some measure of freedom and security.

I don't think any of those conflicts are worth it- Iraq or Afghanistan.

We provided a false sense of security for these countries and then left in the middle of the night. Not after a massive amount of casualties and deaths on both sides. Sure there are some bad guys there that deserved to get shot in the face but our overall effort was wasteful.

And I am not even mentioning the civilian casualties.

Now they seem to be worst off then before. Same with Iraq. Destabilized the whole country and left and let ISIS just take over the place.

Now Afghanistan is falling to the Taliban and Iraq is barely functioning nation state.

Why cant our military be a strategic deterrent and work on security cooperation and diplomacy? Why we got to keep sending young kids to die in endless wars. We should have learned our lesson in Vietnam but we didnt and repeated it again in Afghanistan and Iraq.

 

[nodropinufaka]

I’d say that someone that just claimed that the military preys on poor people to send them off to die, and seemed unaware that a shitload of naval aviators on a naval aviation site have been to Iraq or Afghanistan may not have a very… nuanced view.

How that does that have anything to do with my own experiences and education?

Feel free to go look at the statistics of people enlisting. It is mostly poor people from economically depressed areas.

 

[Pags]

Just out of curiosity, what kind of wars/conflicts are worth it? I ask because although today while I honestly fret for the women and children of Afghanistan, I am immensely proud of the fact that for 20 years people like me, and me myself, gave them some measure of freedom and security.

There's so many layers to this question...worth what to who? Did we kill Bin Laden? Yep, that's good. Did we make lasting democracies in either IRQ or AFG that aren't the breeding grounds of terrorist? Probably not...? Did we kill a lot of bad guys? Yep. Did we bring make the US safer? Maybe? Did we improve the lives of average Iraqi or Afghanis? I hope so and hopefully it lasts...but if I was a liberal Afghani who had spent the past 20yrs enjoying a different lifestyle I'd probably be looking for an exit right about now.

But none of that devalues the service of me, you, or anyone else who did what their country asked regardless of whether it was good or not.

 

[Treetop Flyer]

How that does that have anything to do with my own experiences and education?

Feel free to go look at the statistics of people enlisting. It is mostly poor people from economically depressed areas.

It tells me that apparently there are jobs in the military where people weren’t aware we’ve been at war the last twenty years

 

[nodropinufaka]

It tells me that apparently there are jobs in the military where people weren’t aware we’ve been at war the last twenty years

You do realize it is often their only option?

 

[nodropinufaka]

But none of that devalues the service of me, you, or anyone else who did what their country asked regardless of whether it was good or not.

I think this is the issue.

I think some people feel like criticism of the governments use of military action devalues their service or some people think that it is a criticism of someones decision to serve- which it isnt.

 

[Treetop Flyer]

You do realize it is often their only option?

Are you back to that? Perhaps you forgot you already backed off that a few pages back. I know it must be tough to keep up with your shifting arguments.

Also I was talking about whatever your job was.