CMV-22B Osprey Rollout

[gparks1989]

Nearly every platform in the US inventory has an ALQ-XXX installed in it. Very, very few have even a whiff of survivability inside legitimate, high-end, threat radar detection ranges. Arguing otherwise is absurd and an overselling of one's capabilities. Doubly so if that statement is made based off of what can be found on training ranges.

 

[Best-22]

Nearly every platform in the US inventory has an ALQ-XXX installed in it. Very, very few have even a whiff of survivability inside legitimate, high-end, threat radar detection ranges. Arguing otherwise is absurd and an overselling of one's capabilities. Doubly so if that statement is made based off of what can be found on training ranges.

I agree, but there also isn't anything better than the CV-22 currently operating. At least not anything that can land vertically with more than one person onboard.

RF jamming is an important tool, but its not the only tool available. The 160th has nearly identical systems onboard, none of us are relying on that alone to get us home safe.

 

[Griz882]

Tactically speaking (or maybe tactfully speaking) couldn’t the Plopter guys make nice with the Havoc/AEW guys and get them to help on some of these WEZ intense environments like they did with the F-117’s in ODS? For the sake of victory and all.

 

[insanebikerboy]

I agree, but there also isn't anything better than the CV-22 currently operating. At least not anything that can land vertically with more than one person onboard.

RF jamming is an important tool, but its not the only tool available. The 160th has nearly identical systems onboard, none of us are relying on that alone to get us home safe.

I’ll take the 160th. They have the same, if not better equipment as the Osprey and at least they can shoot at the enemy while flying towards them…

All spears aside, the very nature of an aircraft that has rotating surfaces (like a helo or Osprey) makes it immensely susceptible to shoot-down by RF threats, regardless of what ASE is on board.

 

[hscs]

@Best-22 - what happened to the quiet professional culture? I worked with your predecessors, and if what you say is true, your more senior pilots would ‘take you behind the Line Shack’ as we say in Naval Aviation….

 

[Griz882]

Ladies and gentlemen, may I present to you the ECV-22 ?

Not before the Zombie Viking…you bastard!

 

[Best-22]

I’ll take the 160th. They have the same, if not better equipment as the Osprey and at least they can shoot at the enemy while flying towards them…

All spears aside, the very nature of an aircraft that has rotating surfaces (like a helo or Osprey) makes it immensely susceptible to shoot-down by RF threats, regardless of what ASE is on board.

Are they gonna shoot the SAM systems before they get shot down themselves? I think you'd have a hard time convincing any 160th flight leads to go out and start doing helicopter based SEAD/DEAD.

Look, they're also very capable at this mission set but everyone has their strengths and weaknesses. Not a knock against their crews at all.

Flying at half the speed of the V-22 means you're buying at least twice as long of a vulnerability window. That in turn puts more demand on your supporting assets; likely fighter types which are very fuel limited.

Having greatly reduced range compared to a V-22 limits your options for circumventing the threat entirely. Air refueling helps of course but the tankers are staying far away from contested airspace.

None of us are LO platforms, but having mostly composite construction and largely limiting blade flash to the 3/9 line helps.

 

[Best-22]

@Best-22 - what happened to the quiet professional culture? I worked with your predecessors, and if what you say is true, your more senior pilots would ‘take you behind the Line Shack’ as we say in Naval Aviation….

I'm not posting anything controversial here. Just looking to educate on the off chance I get to work with someone reading this in the future.

I'm open to criticism though if you feel I'm wrong about something.

 

[insanebikerboy]

Are they gonna shoot the SAM systems before they get shot down themselves? I think you'd have a hard time convincing any 160th flight leads to go out and start doing helicopter based SEAD/DEAD.

Look, they're also very capable at this mission set but everyone has their strengths and weaknesses. Not a knock against their crews at all.

Flying at half the speed of the V-22 means you're buying at least twice as long of a vulnerability window. That in turn puts more demand on your supporting assets; likely fighter types which are very fuel limited.

Having greatly reduced range compared to a V-22 limits your options for circumventing the threat entirely. Air refueling helps of course but the tankers are staying far away from contested airspace.

None of us are LO platforms, but having mostly composite construction and largely limiting blade flash to the 3/9 line helps.

I’m throwing shade in jest, and I’m not trying to measure dicks between helo or Osprey.

My point is any aircraft that has rotating parts external to the airframe skin is akin to flying a barn through the sky. No amount of ASE gear can change that. The 3-9 line you talk about only matters in certain aspects, other aspects it’s like a radar wave hits the side of a steel wall. Bottom line, rotating wings and RF/radar don’t mix.

 

[Best-22]

I’m throwing shade in jest, and I’m not trying to measure dicks between helo or Osprey.

My point is any aircraft that has rotating parts external to the airframe skin is akin to flying a barn through the sky. No amount of ASE gear can change that. The 3-9 line you talk about only matters in certain aspects, other aspects it’s like a radar wave hits the side of a steel wall. Bottom line, rotating wings and RF/radar don’t mix.

Oh No doubt, maybe when we get replaced with HSVTOL we can be stealthy and cool.

 

[Brett327]

It obviously isn't as powerful as a growler but its an important tool and certainly adequate as a self protection jammer. Combined with the right tactics and force packaging the CV-22 is far from being automatically killed "inside any WEZ."

A couple of thoughts to leave you with...

Firstly, I'm begging you... please seek out your nearest WTI and educate yourself on the capabilities of your ASE systems. I took one look at the operating frequency range of the 211 and instantly knew that you're vulnerable to a whole host of threat systems. Second, please take a look at the OT results of 211 vs threat systems... not a particularly rosy picture - ODT&E gave it a failing grade. The same limitations can be gleaned from the 160th's own TTP documents. Lastly, overselling your platform's capabilities, or underselling its vulnerabilities, is the quickest way for you to lose credibility in a joint mission planning environment. That's one of the first things we teach our WTIs.

So, I know you were just trying to stick up for your platform - good on you for that - but don't let bravado paint you into a tactical corner from which you, or those you lead, may not survive.

Happy aloha Friday!

 

[Best-22]

A couple of thoughts to leave you with...

Firstly, I'm begging you... please seek out your nearest WTI and educate yourself on the capabilities of your ASE systems. I took one look at the operating frequency range of the 211 and instantly knew that you're vulnerable to a whole host of threat systems. Second, please take a look at the OT results of 211 vs threat systems... not a particularly rosy picture - ODT&E gave it a failing grade. The same limitations can be gleaned from the 160th's own TTP documents. Lastly, overselling your platform's capabilities, or underselling its vulnerabilities, is the quickest way for you to lose credibility in a joint mission planning environment. That's one of the first things we teach our WTIs.

So, I know you were just trying to stick up for your platform - good on you for that - but don't let bravado paint you into a tactical corner from which you, or those you lead, may not survive.

Happy aloha Friday!

I'm not at all claiming the 211 makes us invulnerable. I'm afraid people are reading my posts and taking it as me saying the CV can fly straight and level through the heart of a double digit SAM WEZ without a care in the world. This is not what I'm saying. Of course it doesn't cover all threats in all scenarios.

It is, however, effective as a self protection tool and buys back some airspace. When combined with low altitudes, chaff, maneuver, and supporting assets you can get away with a lot more than people realize. All else being equal, we're much less effective without the jammer.

On the Air Force side we have the WIC program vs your WTI. The WIC has only been stood up for CV-22s for about 2-3 years and we're learning a lot as that program matures.

I'm confident you're a well read guy but IOT&E was 15 years ago. I'm not exactly the newest guy out of the schoolhouse myself and I'm very familiar with what our SIRFC/DIRCM systems are capable of. I'd like to respectfully point out that you can also lose credibility by talking about someone else's area of expertise and being wrong about it. Saying we're hopeless in ANY threat WEZ is quite frankly way off the mark.

I stand by my assertion that the CV is the best asset for vertical lift in a contested air environment. That doesn't mean I'm saying we're invincible. Of course there are limitations but I can't exactly go into specifics on a public message board. I'm also not saying everyone else sucks. There are plenty of missions where the terminal area operations would have me recommending other assets despite the tradeoffs.

Thank you all for letting an Air Force guy on a Navy forum, I appreciate the conversation.

 

[Brett327]

Sigh.

 

[Swanee]

I'm not at all claiming the 211 makes us invulnerable. I'm afraid people are reading my posts and taking it as me saying the CV can fly straight and level through the heart of a double digit SAM WEZ without a care in the world. This is not what I'm saying. Of course it doesn't cover all threats in all scenarios.

It is, however, effective as a self protection tool and buys back some airspace. When combined with low altitudes, chaff, maneuver, and supporting assets you can get away with a lot more than people realize. All else being equal, we're much less effective without the jammer.

On the Air Force side we have the WIC program vs your WTI. The WIC has only been stood up for CV-22s for about 2-3 years and we're learning a lot as that program matures.

I'm confident you're a well read guy but IOT&E was 15 years ago. I'm not exactly the newest guy out of the schoolhouse myself and I'm very familiar with what our SIRFC/DIRCM systems are capable of. I'd like to respectfully point out that you can also lose credibility by talking about someone else's area of expertise and being wrong about it. Saying we're hopeless in ANY threat WEZ is quite frankly way off the mark.

I stand by my assertion that the CV is the best asset for vertical lift in a contested air environment. That doesn't mean I'm saying we're invincible. Of course there are limitations but I can't exactly go into specifics on a public message board. I'm also not saying everyone else sucks. There are plenty of missions where the terminal area operations would have me recommending other assets despite the tradeoffs.

Thank you all for letting an Air Force guy on a Navy forum, I appreciate the conversation.

Dude. You're making those of us who also wear silver wing look bad.


FWIW, the AF has been out of the legit EA/EW game for almost 2 generations now. The Navy guys know more, have way more experience, and have everyone else beat on this one. Your Patch should know this.

 

[Best-22]

Dude. You're making those of us who also wear silver wing look bad.

how so?