Consequences for Veterans and/or retirees in the 2021 DC Riots

[Spekkio]

I guess the new administration can show us what else can be done. So far it’s a statement that we can’t change the trajectory of the disease, a symbolic mask order, and a goal of 100 million vaccinations in the first 100 days. Except in week one, we’re already averaging a million vaccinations a day. Great job.

My mom once taught me that two wrongs don't make a right. Let's keep the whataboutism somewhere else.

Trump was a dumpster fire in many respects to the way in which he communicated and articulated policy. But the MSM routinely backed up a tanker truck filled with fuel and added to the inferno at every turn. Attack his delivery and method all you want, but maybe every once in awhile report on the substance of his policies and efforts.

Where did I ever claim that the MSM didn't attack Trump? Of course they did. But he could have overcome that quite easily by exercising good leadership in a time of crisis. That's what sunk him, not yellow journalism.

 

[wink]

Let's keep the whataboutism somewhere else.

So called whataboutism is a made up word that too often is used to shut down any relative comparisons of results, policy, and hypocrisy. When I am the Commodore of Air Warriors I am banning the word "whataboutism". Oh and "onboarding", least of all "offboarding", as it applies to HR functions.

 

[Spekkio]

So called whataboutism is a made up word that too often is used to shut down any relative comparisons of results, policy, and hypocrisy.

Except I wasn't making any comparison of policy to anyone. I was criticizing Trump and Trump alone for his lack of leadership during COVID-19. Nowhere did I say I thought that Biden was a better or worse person for the job, so Treetop Flyer's post is irrelevant to the discussion.

 

[Treetop Flyer]

My mom once taught me that two wrongs don't make a right. Let's keep the whataboutism somewhere else.


Where did I ever claim that the MSM didn't attack Trump? Of course they did. But he could have overcome that quite easily by exercising good leadership in a time of crisis. That's what sunk him, not yellow journalism.

It’s not whataboutism, it’s pointing out there isn’t some magic action to take.

The new leadership has changed essentially nothing. If it was so badly mishandled, I guess we are in for more mishandling

 

[HAL Pilot]

I'm done debating the merits of Trumps policies. He's out of office and it's not worth the effort. Any debate we have is not going to change either of our minds nor anyone else's.

But I'll continue to say this whole impeachment thing and the investigations of him by places like NY are nothing but politically driven hypocritical bullshit. Not because I like Trump the person but because I hate political witch hunts and the hypocrisy of the Dems/left.

 

[HAL Pilot]

...Trump COVID words....

Everything Trump ever tried to do with COVID was instantly attacked by the leftie press and Dems. Biden's whole 100 million shots in 100 days is bullshit because the Trump administration was track to have vaccinated almost 980 million in that amount of time. Biden's plan needs to administer 1 million shots per day. Trump's administration was administering 983,000 per day.

As far as the COVID relief bill - I wasn't for it and I don't think there should be another one. I don't want my taxes bailing out places like NY, California and Hawaii with their stupid government imposed restrictions. Instead, I want to see the restrictions removed, the economy opened back up, and those at risk demonstrating some self reliance when it comes to protection from COVID - not restricting the vast majority and ruining the economy to try and protect the vast minority. Concentrate what government money needs to be spent on the at risk instead of having policies that result in this unprecedented level of deficit spending unnecessarily.

So no, I don't think Trump's policies were bad or killed anyone. I think the idiot governors like Cuomo and Newsome as well as the idiot mayors like NYC, LA, Chicago and Minneapolis have are the problem.

But again, you've hawked your opinion on this loudly and often on this site so any debate we have is worthless as far as changing minds so therefore pointless.

 

[Brett327]

Except I wasn't making any comparison of policy to anyone. I was criticizing Trump and Trump alone for his lack of leadership during COVID-19. Nowhere did I say I thought that Biden was a better or worse person for the job, so Treetop Flyer's post is irrelevant to the discussion.

AW Pro Tip - If you block Treetop, all of his posts are irrelevant to the discussion.

 

[Treetop Flyer]

AW Pro Tip - If you block Treetop, all of his posts are irrelevant to the discussion.

If you embarrass Brett often enough he’ll likely block you. Enjoy your safe space

 

[wink]

Except I wasn't making any comparison of policy to anyone. I was criticizing Trump and Trump alone for his lack of leadership during COVID-19. Nowhere did I say I thought that Biden was a better or worse person for the job, so Treetop Flyer's post is irrelevant to the discussion.

I was replying to you inferring Treetop flyer was using whataboutism.

 

[robav8r]

Except I wasn't making any comparison of policy to anyone. I was criticizing Trump and Trump alone for his lack of leadership during COVID-19. Nowhere did I say I thought that Biden was a better or worse person for the job, so Treetop Flyer's post is irrelevant to the discussion.

There is an excellent read called "Freedom's Forge" about two extraordinary American businessmen—General Motors automobile magnate William “Big Bill” Knudsen and shipbuilder Henry J. Kaiser—who helped corral, cajole, and inspire business leaders across the country to mobilize the “arsenal of democracy” that propelled the Allies to victory in World War II. Drafting top talent from companies like Chrysler, Republic Steel, Boeing, Lockheed, GE, and Frigidaire, Knudsen and Kaiser turned auto plants into aircraft factories and civilian assembly lines into fountains of munitions. In four short years they transformed America’s army from a hollow shell into a truly global force, laying the foundations for the country’s rise as an economic as well as military superpower.

I agree that Trump completely failed in delivering the kind of "feel good, must be pumped-up everyday" kind of leadership that most liberals require these days, but if you look at the facts, what he did behind the scenes wrt Operation Warp Speed and how he was able to accelerate Ventilator production and delivery, was remarkable. The H1N1 Swine Flu pandemic depleted many necessary and critical medical supplies, like ventilators, that were never replaced by the states because of primarily, budgetary constraints. The MSM completely glosses over these kinds of facts and misleads low-information viewers into thinking the Orange Man is responsible for everything bad, and did absolutely nothing right during this crisis.

I find it somewhat amusing, and extremely disappointing to watch the narrative start to change wrt indoor dining, lockdowns, and public restrictions for COVID-19. Biden's recent statement about "we can't change the trajectory of the virus" should tell you everything. Oh well, gotta go with the science, right? Watch how quickly the "science" will legitimize reopening and relaxing current restrictions . . . .

 

[SlickAg]

There is an excellent read called "Freedom's Forge" about two extraordinary American businessmen—General Motors automobile magnate William “Big Bill” Knudsen and shipbuilder Henry J. Kaiser—who helped corral, cajole, and inspire business leaders across the country to mobilize the “arsenal of democracy” that propelled the Allies to victory in World War II. Drafting top talent from companies like Chrysler, Republic Steel, Boeing, Lockheed, GE, and Frigidaire, Knudsen and Kaiser turned auto plants into aircraft factories and civilian assembly lines into fountains of munitions. In four short years they transformed America’s army from a hollow shell into a truly global force, laying the foundations for the country’s rise as an economic as well as military superpower.

I agree that Trump completely failed in delivering the kind of "feel good, must be pumped-up everyday" kind of leadership that most liberals required these days, but if you look at the facts, what he did behind the scenes wrt Operation Warp Speed and how he was able to accelerate Ventilator production and delivery, was remarkable. The H1N1 Swine Flu pandemic depleted many necessary and critical medical supplies, like ventilators, that were never replaced by the states because of primarily, budgetary constraints. The MSM completely glosses over these kinds of facts and misleads low-information viewers into thinking the Orange Man is responsible for everything bad, and did absolutely nothing right during this crisis.

I find it somewhat amusing, and extremely disappointing to watch the narrative start to change wrt indoor dining, lockdowns, and public restrictions for COVID-19. Biden's recent statement about "we can't change the trajectory of the virus" should tell you everything. Oh well, gotta go with the science, right? Watch how quickly the "science" will legitimize reopening and relaxing current restrictions . . . .

““The science around this virus is settled, and if we can all wear masks and be very smart about congregating, and not do it unless it’s necessary, washing our hands, doing that social distancing, we will be in a strong position in a few weeks,” Whitmer said during a press conference.”

Michigan Announces Re-Opening of Restaurants and Bars Two Days After Biden's Inauguration

Friday, Gov. Gretchen Whitmer announced that Michigan is reopening indoor dining on Feb. 1.The order, which runs through Feb. 21, says restaurants and bars will be allowed to offer

www.outkick.com

 

[taxi1]

But I'll continue to say this whole impeachment thing and the investigations of him by places like NY are nothing but politically driven hypocritical bullshit.

They are going to have to flat-out look the other way on the payoffs to the women that Cohen went to jail for, that Trump directed him to do. They probably will.

But there is the now-well documented split between what he claimed as property values to pay low taxes versus property values to get high selling prices and cheaper, better loan terms, which is fraud. No one would have cared if he was just DJT the reality TV star, but being President leads to people digging and finding things (including adversary states, by the way). What is known can’t be unknown.

Obviously this is going to be pursued.

Never-Before-Seen Trump Tax Documents Show Major Inconsistencies

The president’s businesses made themselves appear more profitable to lenders and less profitable to tax officials. One expert calls the differing numbers “versions of fraud.”

www.propublica.org

 

[HAL Pilot]

^^ If you dig deep enough you can find something on anyone.

But I’m glad to see that you’re admitting it’s political digging.

 

[llnick2001]

Dersh is a clown. No serious legal mind would disagree. This is self evident.

He graduated top of his class from Yale Law and clerked for SCOTUS. He's a smart guy, and he has collected about every brass ring the profession has to offer. He may make some outlandish arguments, but he's a defense attorney who defends people who are guilty as all hell. He's going to have to make those arguments; it's his job. I disagree with his take on the impeachment here (as it was explained, I haven't snuck through the pay wall yet to actually read it), but I think its a fair argument to make; clearly, impeachment is tied to the federal office. Dershowitz may be a clown or political hack or what have you, and I guess the seriousness of my legal mind is debatable, but even if I think he's being a zealous advocate (or full of shit), I'm going to consider what he has to say because he has some serious credentials and some serious experience.

He was also a Harvard Law Prof. Being a non career Harvard Law lecturer seemed to carry a lot of gravitas for Obama.

Instead of attacking him personally, perhaps you could find someone of equal credentials who disagrees with his assessment. As I said, not interested in amateur Con Law practitioners, but truly interested in what the experts have to say. Listening to the experts is supposed to be de rigueur in the new Administration. No?

Wink, I'm hardly an expert, but I did OK in Con Law and like to think I can hold my own for a new lawyer. I have no doubt Dershowitz would take me out to the wood shed in a courtroom, but I think he's wrong on this one. I think the Senate can try him here without issue for a few reasons, and I'm curious to hear what others think.

1. I just don't read the Constitution to say the person still has to be in office to be impeached or tried in a case of impeachment. Obviously there is a lot of stuff the Constitution doesn't spell out that gets attributed to it, so I guess it depends how much of a textualist is doing the reading, but I try and stick to the words;

2. The President was impeached while he was still in office, so even if someone has to be in the office to be impeached, he was. I think it's fair to argue that even assuming the framers intended for only those currently in office to be subject to impeachment, there is no reason to think the trial couldn't occur later;

3. I think the limits on the judgment from a conviction the Senate in the Constitution are telling. Because "disqualification to hold and enjoy any office of honor, trust or profit under the United States" it is reasonable to conclude more than the current office is at stake and therefore the process should remain available. It also ensures, imo, that the case isn't moot just because the impeached President is no longer in office. I would argue the framers thought it was important for the Senate to be able to bench people it found worthy of conviction and the importance of that wouldn't stop just because the guilty person had already left the office;

4. Practically speaking, who is going to stop the Senate from trying it? The House is on board and enough of the Senate will be. I find it hard to believe President Biden will send in the DOJ to fight for President Trump, so you'd be left with a minority of Congress and an ex-President trying to take it to SCOTUS. SCOTUS has already invoked the political question doctrine when considering whether the Senate's impeachment procedures were proper in a case, see Nixon v. US, 506 U.S. 224 (surprisingly, not THAT Nixon - that's a different case), and I doubt they're going to get involved on this one since the Constitution still effectively says the courts have no business there (other than the Chief presiding for POTUS).

If I run across any actual experts' takes, I'll try and come back and post them.

Other stuff I saw in here I had some thoughts on that are neither here nor there:

Someone mentioned Biden pardoning Trump. He can't pardon him in a case of impeachment. U.S. Const., Art. 2, Sec. 2. Not sure if the comment was referring to impeachment or not. He could pardon him for other federal crimes.

I think Griz mentioned a bill of attainder issue. I don't think that's an issue here. A bill of attainder is when the legislature usurps the role of the judiciary by "trying" someone by passing a law saying the person is guilty and sentencing them. Impeachment is separate, and the punishment is limited to the effects on the ability to hold the office and its trappings. If they went for something beyond that, then the issue might come up. Plus the things President Trump already allegedly did were already illegal when he did them.

 

[Brett327]

He graduated top of his class from Yale Law and clerked for SCOTUS

Cool... and now he's a clown. Your appeal to authority argument is not convincing. The rest of your post is compelling, but I'm scratching my head at why you would consider Dershowitz's perspectives.