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COVID-19
- Thread starter Treetop Flyer
- Start date
I don’t think I did. What was the question again?
Citation needed
To pick one…
How long will Idaho remain under crisis standards of care?
In order to move out of crisis standards of care, the number of resources must once again exceed the number of patients.
www.ktvb.com
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I don’t think I did. What was the question again?
Citation needed
To pick one…
How long will Idaho remain under crisis standards of care?
In order to move out of crisis standards of care, the number of resources must once again exceed the number of patients.
COVID-19
How many dead would it take for it to be a big deal for you? Hard to know an exact number. But I know for sure that a virus that only seriously affects a tiny fraction of a percent of people who aren’t elderly does not cross the “big deal” threshold. Why don’t you flip the question on its...
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Here's some citations. Our best vax, the Pfizer, lowers transmission by about 10% for 3 months, then it does nothing: https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-02689-yI don’t think I did. What was the question again?
Citation needed
To pick one…
How long will Idaho remain under crisis standards of care?
In order to move out of crisis standards of care, the number of resources must once again exceed the number of patients.
Check out the charts on this one showing rates of infection for vaccinated and unvaccinated: https://assets.publishing.service.g...238/Vaccine_surveillance_report_-_week_39.pdf
. There is no lasting protection against infection, and once infected, you are just as likely to spread it.
Not sure the article you referenced says what you think it days. It does not say any hospital is overwhelmed, just that the hospitals have adapted their footprints and the ratio of patients to providers is worse than before. There is no shortage of ventilators. Folks who need them are getting them. That's beside the point regarding a mandate anyway, unless you think our freedoms all across the country should be taken away to protect a very small minority of hospitals from having to transfer patients to other hospitals while they lay off other nurses and doctors for being unvaccinated.
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ok
I disagree with the premise, that the choice was between saving lives or saving business activity. The choice was between dealing with the pandemic smartly or stupidly. We lost both lives and business activity.
What it says is that Idaho is under crisis care conditions. You go to those conditions when you have to ration care, not before. Idaho has been rationing care for a full month in their hospitals, even after sending patients to Washington next door and other states.
Alaska and parts of Montana are also rationing care. All three have low vax rates. Not a coincidence.
Spekkio
He bowls overhand.
So the CVS website for the vaccine now includes big, bold warnings against myocarditis for individuals under 29 years old - definitely a disclaimer that was not present when I was vaccinated several months ago in the early stages of the EUA. "Trust us, it's perfectly safe" they said. Which brings me to an interesting discussion I had with my wife....
She noted how the FDA is about to approve use for the vaccine for children under 12, and she asked if she should take ours as soon as possible. She was surprised when I said I don't know....in that, I don't know the risk of complications of the vaccine vs. the risk of long-term health effects / death from COVID-19. I know the last part of the equation is that the CFR for COVID-19 in children is 0.0001, or 10 per 100,000, virtually all of whom had some other kind of chronic health condition that my children don't have, but the data for the first part of the equation is not public knowledge.
Additionally, now we don't know how long the vaccine is effective, and we do know that immunized individuals can spread the disease just as easily - which is why the CDC has gone back to recommending masks regardless of vaccination status - and that was the main argument promoting vaccination of children under 18
On the flip side of the coin, if I abstain from accepting this risk then my children are likely to be treated like second-class citizens.
She noted how the FDA is about to approve use for the vaccine for children under 12, and she asked if she should take ours as soon as possible. She was surprised when I said I don't know....in that, I don't know the risk of complications of the vaccine vs. the risk of long-term health effects / death from COVID-19. I know the last part of the equation is that the CFR for COVID-19 in children is 0.0001, or 10 per 100,000, virtually all of whom had some other kind of chronic health condition that my children don't have, but the data for the first part of the equation is not public knowledge.
Additionally, now we don't know how long the vaccine is effective, and we do know that immunized individuals can spread the disease just as easily - which is why the CDC has gone back to recommending masks regardless of vaccination status - and that was the main argument promoting vaccination of children under 18
On the flip side of the coin, if I abstain from accepting this risk then my children are likely to be treated like second-class citizens.
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And clearly we all disagree with you on the premise that the virus was scary. I agree with you that there didn’t have to be any destruction of business or livelihood or children’s education or people’s civility and mental health. What part of “the virus wasn’t a factor for virtually anyone who isn’t elderly or obese, and therefore destroying our way of life doesn’t make sense” don’t you understand?
If you keep reading the article, you'll see that the things they are looking to change before they get rid of the scary "crisis care conditions" label is the footprints of hospitals returning to normal and staffing ratios to return to prepandemic levels. Nowhere in the article does it say folks are being turned away for care. Find me some evidence that hospitals are overrun across the country, patients are dying from COVID because they can't get a ventilator, and I can at least understand why someone would try to make the argument that we need a mandate to help out the hospitals. But as it is, that's not a legit argument, and neither is us needing a mandate to prevent the spread of the virus, since it does very little to slow the spread for a short period and nothing to prevent the spread.
Spekkio
He bowls overhand.
32% of counties that reported data are using 30% or more of ICU beds for COVID-19 patients. While that's not necessarily 'overrun,' it does leave the hospitals in those counties brittle to not being able to dealing any future emergency care.
https://covid.cdc.gov/covid-data-tr...rcent_adult_icu_beds_used_confirmed_covid|all
The hospitalization rate of unvaccinated individuals is an order of magnitude higher than those who are vaccinated:
So a third of hospitals have a third of their ICU capacity filled due to covid. Are you arguing that is a problem worth mandating an irreversible medical procedure with unknown long term effects for? If not, then what's your point? At least for me, this nowhere near meets the criteria I set for even beginning to have the conversation about this justifying a mandate.
Spekkio
He bowls overhand.
We're looking at data on the waning end of the delta variant surge, the numbers were much higher a few weeks ago. But aside from that, taking up 30%+ of ICU beds is a big tax on our healthcare system in those areas. Furthermore, the problem isn't unique to some corner village in Idaho.
COVID-19 isn't going away after delta variant and beyond, and is likely to flare back up again in the Jan - Mar timeframe, so...
Yes. Given the effectiveness of the vaccine at reducing serious illness and death in COVID-19 cases (including delta variant), the fact that somewhere between 100-142M Americans are still vulnerable against the disease (depending on vaccination / prior case overlap), and the comparatively extremely low prevalence of long-term side effects, public health policy should mandate vaccination in adults. We don't have enough ICU beds to handle that many people getting seriously ill, even in areas where only 30% of the population is at higher risk.
Alternatively, I'd be all for a policy that insurance companies won't pay for inpatient COVID-19 care and hospitals reserve the right to only preserve a certain percentage of beds for this disease. I'd also be for a policy that targets mandatory vaccinations for people who are over 40, obese, or have other chronic conditions. However, all of those stipulations would be easily struck down in judicial review for one reason or another.
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Good to know so many Americans are written off in your mind. The Balkanization of our country is complete.
Time to break out the knock off track suits.
Time to break out the knock off track suits.
The vaccines (or whatever you guys want to call them) create immunity by causing your body to create the spike proteins that are found on the virus. Can these have an adverse effect? It appears so in an extremely small number of people.
But guess what else generates those same spike proteins, in greater numbers and uncontrollably? The virus itself.