DADT repealed

[phrogdriver]

Somewhere in the military, there are a lot more group showers going on than I was ever aware of. Where the hell do you people work?

...standing by for everyone to dogpile and fake standing up for the poor sailors in berthing.

 

[mmx1]

Here is what I don't get. There is a big difference between working side by side with someone, and sleeping and showering side by side. This isn't a 9-5. It isn't a hair dressing job. There is much more to the military than working side by side. If I'm in the showers at the gym now, and there are gay dudes, I don't know it. Ignorance is bliss. Now, I may know that I'm showering with a bunch of gay guys. Now MY values are compromised. You may be fine with it, but I'm not. It's not the same as color or race, it is something completely different. They don't let us shower with the women, this should be the same thing.

Dude, there are dependents, retirees and DoD civilians at the base gym showering next to you and letting their naughty bits hang out. None of whom are required by DADT to be closeted about being gay. We even had a civilian maintainer (retired mil) who did the transgender thing. Life moved on.

I'd frankly be more worried about the secret homosexual than the one I know is out.

 

[Brunes]

Here is what I don't get. There is a big difference between working side by side with someone, and sleeping and showering side by side. This isn't a 9-5. It isn't a hair dressing job. There is much more to the military than working side by side. If I'm in the showers at the gym now, and there are gay dudes, I don't know it. Ignorance is bliss. Now, I may know that I'm showering with a bunch of gay guys. Now MY values are compromised. You may be fine with it, but I'm not. It's not the same as color or race, it is something completely different. They don't let us shower with the women, this should be the same thing.

Here is what I don't get- Which of your values are being compromised??

Somewhere in the military, there are a lot more group showers going on than I was ever aware of. Where the hell do you people work?

...standing by for everyone to dogpile and fake standing up for the poor sailors in berthing.

It's funny- This might be a coast guard thing- but all the ships I've ever been on (about 11 now...) had individual showers for everyone. Mighta been 6 or 8 stalls all in the same room- but there were stalls. Same thing in the lockers rooms (except at the Academy...)

 

[gparks1989]

Here is what I don't get. There is a big difference between working side by side with someone, and sleeping and showering side by side. This isn't a 9-5. It isn't a hair dressing job. There is much more to the military than working side by side. If I'm in the showers at the gym now, and there are gay dudes, I don't know it. Ignorance is bliss. Now, I may know that I'm showering with a bunch of gay guys. Now MY values are compromised. You may be fine with it, but I'm not. It's not the same as color or race, it is something completely different. They don't let us shower with the women, this should be the same thing.

How is it different from race? As for the "my values" part...should the military be making decisions based on solely your values? 88% of whites were against integration during WWII, yet, due to strong political reasons and loud protests from the nascent civil rights movement, small moves were taken towards integration. One could argue that it was political maneuvering and a bad time to commission the Golden 13, yet we did. That at a time when the "my values" view was overwhelming against integration and steps towards it (the Golden 13 was a considerable step forward and against societal norms or comfort level).

I'm incredibly idealistic, so that colors my views, but I feel that it's absurd in this day and age that we would force people who are fit for duty and ready to put their lives on the line merely because what they do in their own time, in their own home, goes against our personal values (whatever the reasons for them). If it impedes mission accomplishment, fine, but if it's based on a bias or discomfort or outright disgust, that's incredibly worrying. There will be growing pains, but 40 years from now, I highly doubt people will look back and say: "jeez, what an awful idea, now our military is in shambles"

Is it politics? Damn straight. So was every other form of integration.

DADT seems like an unnecessary distraction when we're at war. Better to get rid of it and give liberals one less thing to bitch about, and the population one less thing to criticize the military for. This will also force Ivy's to either welcome ROTC with open arms or admit to their disturbing, anti-military bias.

If someone can do their job, honorably serve their country and accomplish the mission....what's the big deal!?

v/r

 

[pilot_man]

How is it different from race? As for the "my values" part...should the military be making decisions based on solely your values? 88% of whites were against integration during WWII, yet, due to strong political reasons and loud protests from the nascent civil rights movement, small moves were taken towards integration. One could argue that it was political maneuvering and a bad time to commission the Golden 13, yet we did. That at a time when the "my values" view was overwhelming against integration and steps towards it (the Golden 13 was a considerable step forward and against societal norms or comfort level).

I'm incredibly idealistic, so that colors my views, but I feel that it's absurd in this day and age that we would force people who are fit for duty and ready to put their lives on the line merely because what they do in their own time, in their own home, goes against our personal values (whatever the reasons for them). If it impedes mission accomplishment, fine, but if it's based on a bias or discomfort or outright disgust, that's incredibly worrying. There will be growing pains, but 40 years from now, I highly doubt people will look back and say: "jeez, what an awful idea, now our military is in shambles"

Is it politics? Damn straight. So was every other form of integration.

DADT seems like an unnecessary distraction when we're at war. Better to get rid of it and give liberals one less thing to bitch about, and the population one less thing to criticize the military for. This will also force Ivy's to either welcome ROTC with open arms or admit to their disturbing, anti-military bias.

If someone can do their job, honorably serve their country and accomplish the mission....what's the big deal!?

v/r

First let me say that I love all of those who have no idea what it is like to actually deploy, to actually cruise, to actually be in the military throwing their two cents in. I'm not asking for your approval and I sure as hell don't have to tell anyone why I feel like MY values are being compromised. All I have to say is they are that's that. You have your opinion, I have mine. Again, if this was the same as race, then men and women should all shower, sleep and work together. If it is the same as color, then there should be no reason for me not to be able to shower with all of the females on the boat. You wouldn't go for that would you? Why? There is a reason men and women are kept separately. To MMX, again there might be gay dudes all around me, but I don't know about it. Now some guy who is out will be right next to me. It's different

 

[twobecrazy]

Somewhere in the military, there are a lot more group showers going on than I was ever aware of.

Bootcamp was the place this happened most when I was in the Navy. In fact it was 12 weeks non-stop of it.

 

[gparks1989]

First let me say that I love all of those who have no idea what it is like to actually deploy, to actually cruise, to actually be in the military throwing their two cents in. I'm not asking for your approval and I sure as hell don't have to tell anyone why I feel like MY values are being compromised. All I have to say is they are that's that. You have your opinion, I have mine. Again, if this was the same as race, then men and women should all shower, sleep and work together. If it is the same as color, then there should be no reason for me not to be able to shower with all of the females on the boat. You wouldn't go for that would you? Why? There is a reason men and women are kept separately. To MMX, again there might be gay dudes all around me, but I don't know about it. Now some guy who is out will be right next to me. It's different

Didn't intend to sound presumptuous. Was going to preface my comments with the fact that my views are those of a green wannabe.

 

[pourts]

Quote function wasn't working, so...

gparks said: "This will also force Ivy's to either welcome ROTC with open arms or admit to their disturbing, anti-military bias."

Negative. There will always be something else wrong with the military according to the Ivies. Now it will likely be a lack of partner/ marriage benefits. Also, getting the Ivies to support ROTC is a pretty insignificant side effect.

 

[Brunes]

First let me say that I love all of those who have no idea what it is like to actually deploy, to actually cruise, to actually be in the military throwing their two cents in. I'm not asking for your approval and I sure as hell don't have to tell anyone why I feel like MY values are being compromised. All I have to say is they are that's that. You have your opinion, I have mine. Again, if this was the same as race, then men and women should all shower, sleep and work together. If it is the same as color, then there should be no reason for me not to be able to shower with all of the females on the boat. You wouldn't go for that would you? Why? There is a reason men and women are kept separately. To MMX, again there might be gay dudes all around me, but I don't know about it. Now some guy who is out will be right next to me. It's different

You bring up an interesting point- Lots of other cultures do gender integrate bathrooms. But the fact that men and women don't shower together doesn't prove anything in relation to DADT....except that GLTB have a better lobbying than folks who want to gender integrate bathrooms.

And what is the point of posting at all if you aren't going to talk about why you feel a certain way. Cause everything that I can think of that is "values" related...yours would maintain intact and other people could maintain theirs as well...

 

[insanebikerboy]

Dude, there are dependents, retirees and DoD civilians at the base gym showering next to you and letting their naughty bits hang out. None of whom are required by DADT to be closeted about being gay. We even had a civilian maintainer (retired mil) who did the transgender thing. Life moved on.

Yeah, but you aren't required by your job in the military to utilize the facilities of the base gym to do your business, so if someone doesn't want to shower next to a gay guy, he can simply not use that shower. Significantly more difficult to do that on a boat.

 

[phrogdriver]

First let me say that I love all of those who have no idea what it is like to actually deploy, to actually cruise, to actually be in the military throwing their two cents in. I'm not asking for your approval and I sure as hell don't have to tell anyone why I feel like MY values are being compromised. All I have to say is they are that's that. You have your opinion, I have mine. Again, if this was the same as race, then men and women should all shower, sleep and work together. If it is the same as color, then there should be no reason for me not to be able to shower with all of the females on the boat. You wouldn't go for that would you? Why? There is a reason men and women are kept separately. To MMX, again there might be gay dudes all around me, but I don't know about it. Now some guy who is out will be right next to me. It's different

I've deployed plenty. This isn't Schroedinger's Cat. Not knowing doesn't actually change anything, other than your comfort level. And honestly, what's with that?

Personally, I've been looking forward to the Starship Troopers program. Still got a couple centuries to wait, apparently.

Still got issues? We can invest a couple hundred bucks on extra shower curtains and still come out financially ahead from DADT.

OCS was the last place I've had group showers, and I was so busy at the time that they could've had a live grizzly bear in the shower and I wouldn't have cared.

Honestly, I was pretty much ambivalent about the whole issue until a couple months ago, when I started hearing the arguments for keeping DADT. They were so poorly formed that I began to support repeal. This thread has only solidified that change in my mind.

 

[mmx1]

Yeah, but you aren't required by your job in the military to utilize the facilities of the base gym to do your business, so if someone doesn't want to shower next to a gay guy, he can simply not use that shower. Significantly more difficult to do that on a boat.

It's a matter of perspective. The openly gay folks are there and there hasn't been a riot from a community that is purportedly so afraid of showering with gays. Less so than of the creepy old guys that won't put a towel on. Have all the grunts and Marines stopped going to the gym because somebody's gay son is showering there?

But by all means, keep the gays in the closet so we can avoid the terrible consequence of putting up privacy curtains so we can blissfully continue all the manly and team-building (in a straight way, of course) practice of group showers. Because I'm completely comfortable walking around other dudes with their junk hanging out.

 

[pourts]

wtf is "Schroedinger's Cat." I googled it but it went way over my head

 

[HercDriver]

wtf is "Schroedinger's Cat." I googled it but it went way over my head

http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/113/the-story-of-schroedingers-cat-an-epic-poem

I'm confused about the values question as well, or even about the "lifestyle". Most of the gay couples I know live what I would call the "middle-class lifestyle"; granted, it is done more tastefully and stylishly, but still solidly middle-class.

 

[twobecrazy]

Pourts,

I think he was implying you will either see homosexuals or you wouldn't see them. It is basically all in the eye of the person observing. Right now there are homosexuals in the military. People choose to either accept the fact there is or they continue acting as if there isn't any.